Your water IS NOT SAFE

Discussion in 'Water Filtering & Storage' started by IrritatedWithUS, Apr 18, 2011.

  1. IrritatedWithUS

    IrritatedWithUS Well-Known Member

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    The New York Times' Ian Urbina reported over the weekend that, according to a report released by three House Democrats--Representatives Henry A. Waxman of California, Edward J. Markey of Massachusetts and Diana DeGette of Colorado--natural gas drillers injected hundreds of millions of gallons of 29 known carcinogens into the ground in 13 states while fracking for gas.

    Reports Urbina:

    Some of the ingredients mixed into the hydraulic fracturing fluids were common and generally harmless, like salt and citric acid. Others were unexpected, like instant coffee and walnut hulls, the report said. Many of the ingredients were "extremely toxic," including benzene, a known human carcinogen, and lead.

    Companies injected large amounts of other hazardous chemicals including 11.4 million gallons of fluids containing at least one of the toxic or carcinogenic B.T.E.X. chemicals — benzene, toluene, xylene and ethylbenzene. The companies used the highest volume of fluids containing one or more carcinogens in Colorado, Oklahoma and Texas.

    In February a congressional investigation found that natural gas drillers injected over 32 million gallons of diesel into the ground in some states during the fracking process.
     
  2. horseman09

    horseman09 Well-Known Member

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    Irritated, Waxman, Markey and DeGette are all loons and the report (which is old), if you read the whole thing, goes on to say they have no evidence of water contamination.

    First of all, frack water has the chemicals referenced in parts per million. Second, nearly all of the frack water comes back out for disposal (that is something that should be watched closely). Third, the "fracking" takes place up to 8000 feet down. If your well is more than 300 feet, I'd be surprised.

    As for the diesel, that is also BS. Diesel is one of the frack fluids that is added in parts per million to frack water. 32 million gallons of frack water is probably an accurate statement (who's counting) but 32 million gallons on diesel fuel is not only ridiculous -- it is already disproven.

    I'm not surprised that the article came from such a rag as the New York Times. Might as well have come from the National Enquirer.
     

  3. IrritatedWithUS

    IrritatedWithUS Well-Known Member

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    It was on the front page of Yahoo, NaturalNews, and New York Times today. I followed the link from Yahoo to the New York Times. My thought was "eeeehh, it's New York times...." but I thought i'd give it a chance.
     
  4. BizzyB

    BizzyB BucketHunter

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    Hold on, Horseman09. You're parroting talking points that have little to do with the reality of life in the gas patch. I own a hunting property in PA and have first hand experience with all the negatives associated with shale gas. And yes, the downsides exist. They are not a Democrat fantasy. And Energy in Depth which comes up with a lot of these supposed rebuttals is as credible a source of information as Media Matters.

    First, to use the ol "parts per million" ruse is sophistry at best. 5 parts per million when FIVE MILLION gallons are used to frack a well adds up real quick. Lets see 5 gallons of diesel/1million gallons of water x 5 million gallons of water = 25 gallons of diesel per well. (Mind if I dump 25 gallons of diesel on your lawn?) Wells are usually fracked two or three times, but for this argument, let's hold it at the first frack. Since there are six to ten wells per pad, there could be up to 250 gallons of diesel on a site. Now take that 25 gallons and multiply it out by the tens of thousands of shale wells. How many exactly? Who the hell knows because the industry is not required to disclose their secret recipes of frack fluid. 32 Mill gallons may be a high, but the only thing that is "ridiculous" is assuming it's less than a million.

    Drill Baby Sophists will also parrot the talking point that "fracking" happens so many thousands of feet below the water table that nothing bad could ever happen. Nice try. To the people who have to live with it, "fracking" is the whole kit and caboodle from the hundreds of overweight trucks to bring it all in to the giant containment ponds that hold the waste water. The contamination happens at the surface when it leaks out of the tanks while they're mixing up the brew and it leaks out of the ponds. There have been 'incidents' all over northern PA, including a case where cattle came into contact with the waste water and had to be quarantined. And the well casings that supposedly protect the aquifer? They fail! Go research Dimock, PA! And anyone who uses the "oh but it's so diluted! Parts per million!" nonsense is more than welcome to drink a glass of it. And shower in it. And give it to their livestock. And give it to their children. For weeks and weeks on end. (note that a portion the "But it's so Diluted" crowd is wringing their hands and watching their geiger counters waiting for the Fukushima radiation to give them a tumor...)

    The truth of it all is, that it is NOT a black and white issue like Sarah Palin and her Drill Babies want you to think: That, if you're for drilling, you're a good and virtuous conservative and if you're opposed, you're a leftist pinko environmentalist. HARDLY. That shale gas is NOT just sitting there for the taking. It's under the surface and American citizens -- and primarily rural American citizens-- own the surface. It cannot be extracted without an enormous industrial footprint and rural Americans generally do not wish to live in industrial zones.

    Go research a thing called the Split Estate and we'll talk more about the abuses and takings that rural Americans are enduring. Go research Forced Pooling and we'll talk more about the outright theft of mineral resources that is occurring in states all across this country. Go research eminent domain and public utilities and we'll talk more about American citizens having to surrender their property in order to install deadly piplines that carry pre-market, pre-odorized gas to market. Go research the impact on infrastructure like roads and bridges and law enforcement and how communities have to raise taxes to subsidize it. After you do the real homework, go reflect on Kelo vs. New London and think about the position a true constitutionalist must take. Side on the side of the American citizen who wanted to retain control of her property? Or side with the "Public" who took the property and transferred it to a corporate interest in hopes it would benefit from the increased tax revenue?

    So move beyond the gib and specious talking points and develop a real understanding of the situation and maybe you'll be as puzzled as I am about why the so-called conservatives have turned their back on rural America in such a hypocritical fashion. And why is it only the Democrats and progressive filmmakers who are bringing attention to this shameful injustice of taking property in the name of energy independence?

    I would apologize for my rant, but with my property being worthless for it's intended purposes, I'm out a few tens of thousands of dollars thanks to shale gas. I've got an axe to grind and a property I can't even give away now.
     
  5. horseman09

    horseman09 Well-Known Member

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    Well BizzyB, I'd suggest you hold on and that you do your homework.

    You might have hunting property in PA, but I live here, quite literally in the heart of gas country. Your statement, "25 gallons of diesel per well. (Mind if I dump 25 gallons of diesel on your lawn?" is the sort of hysterical rhetoric that has nothing to do with reality. 25 gallons of diesel mixed into 5 million gallons of frack water pumped into a 7" diameter bore hole a mile and a half into the earth is hardly dumping "25 gallons of diesel fuel" on anyone's lawn. Furthermore, nearly all of the frack water shoots back up the casing for processing. "Dumping 25 gallons of diesel fuel" on your lawn is just the sort of completely irrelevant, baseless, deceptive crap the enviro-whackos special interest groups like to pump out to stir up the membership and rake in the $$$.

    FYI....the average well here in PA requires about one million -- not five million -- gallons of fluid.

    Must I also remind you that there is also oil down there?! :eek: If you have property in western PA you should know that. In reality, 25 gallons of diesel injected into a hydrocarbon deposit a mile and a half down is like dropping a single drop of water into lake Erie.

    Nearly 1000 gas wells have been drilled in PA and not a single water well has been contaminated with frack water. Area water wells are tested prior to drilling as a baseline to head off fraudulent claims. Before you reference ridiculous, completely unsubstantiated news reports (New York Times, et al), you should know that based on those independent baseline tests, not a single case of a water well contaminated with frack water has been documented.

    Please note that I referred to "frack water" contamination. 19 wells were accidentally infused with shallow methane gas in Dimock, PA as a result of poor casing work, and the state shut the company down for one year. As a side note, methane is not poisonous and it will dissipate, but it is explosive. Not a single documented incident has occurred since.

    You also stated, "It cannot be extracted without an enormous industrial footprint and rural Americans generally do not wish to live in industrial zones." Again, you must be reading Sierra Club crap. A well pad is about 3 to 5 acres during the drilling process. When that is done, it shrinks to as little as 1/2 acre, consisting of, in most cases, a pipe, an elbow,a regulator, a valve, another elbow to return the line to the ground. In some cases a small tank will be installed to retrieve liquid from "wet wells". The whole thing, could fit in a good size garden shed.

    Here's proof. I challenge you. Next time you are in PA, drive to Montoursville (just East of Williamsport), turn north on Rt 87 and drive about 6 miles. Chances are you will not even see the completed well about 200 yards off the road. It is in plain view, but you probably won't see it. It is that innocuous. I don't call that an "enormous industrial footprint". But I call your statement "completely baseless hysteria".

    As for "forced pooling", there is no forced pooling law in PA relevant to forcing landowners to do anything, but a proposed forced pooling law could require gas companies to cooperate with each other so some landowners who own window properties will not be left out.

    As for eminent domain, that only applies to the large interstate pipelines -- just like power lines. It does not apply to gas wells or drilling. I'm not defending that one way or the other, bt is what it is and has been for a century.

    BizzyB, I'm not interested in a long, drawn out debate. Instead, I'd sincerely suggest to you that you take a look for yourself and apply some real critical thinking to not only the content on what you read about gas drilling, but just as important -- the source of the info.

    As for you property, if you signed a proper lease, it is worth more as a steady stream of income with no surface activity at all -- if that's what you put in your lease.
     
  6. BizzyB

    BizzyB BucketHunter

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    You say you live here? How close is the nearest rig and how many months has it been on that pad? How close is the nearest compressor? How many blowdowns do you get a week? Can you actually have a conversation over the noise? How close is the nearest containment pond? Can you smell yours when the wind is just right? How many dozen trucks go barreling up your road a day? Because if you say there's not a huge industrial footprint, you're living in la-la land.

    No, no long drawn out debate from me. Because again, every one of your supposed points are incorrect and anyone who keeps up with the PA press knows it. Sophistry and spin. No basis in the real world. You dismiss my experiences as hysteria? Wow. You dismiss the congressional report of chemicals that HAVE, IN FACT, BEEN INJECTED INTO THE GROUND as the work of loons? Wow. There's no need for you to further demonstrate how out of touch you are. As long as someone else has to make the sacrifices in the name of energy independence, you're fine.

    The rest of us will just have to continue to give up control of surface use, see our property values plummet, listen to compressors all day and night, try to hammer the nail pops back in after they get shaken out by the next round of trucks, use our little conductivity meters on our surface waters waiting for the next leak or blow out, maybe abandon the idea of farming or homesteading, sure as hell give up on hunting. As long as *you* aren't inconvenienced -- hey that's great. I'm super duper happy for you. Living the American dream.

    Seriously, everyone should go read up on split estate. This happens in America, people. There is no such thing as property rights in this country, just taking and taking and taking and taking.

    Rock on, OP.
     
  7. horseman09

    horseman09 Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm. I see you live near Baltimore, but you are telling me all about gas wells in PA. When I step out our back door at night, I see 6 light columns from drilling right now. Some are 6 or 8 miles away -- the nearest is 500 yards the way the crow flies. The good news is they will go away in about 45 days. Yes, more wells will be drilled, but those drilling rigs will go away too.

    Of all of your comments above, all but one (based on drilling here in NE PA) are just plain hysterical. The valid one is truck traffic. Of course, before the bottom dropped out of logging, we had heavy truck traffic anyhow from log trucks. But truck traffic from drilling will end when the wells are completed.

    As for your comment, "The rest of us will just have to continue to give up control of surface use, see our property values plummet", .....if you gave up the surface rights to your property it is because............are you ready for this?............it is because you sold them. No gas company can take your mineral rights. Apparently you sold those rights, now you are whining because you, well, sold those rights!:eek:

    I believe in making decisions and stating opinion based on fact, not manipulative BS form special interest groups. If you want the facts, check the PA DEP site for violations. You'll find lots of techical violations, but very few actual environmental violations. When actual environmental violations occur, the companies responsible get whacked -- as they should.

    Well, from here in the heart of gas country, beautiful NE Pa to you down in Baltimore --------have a great evening. :D
     
  8. *Andi

    *Andi Supporting Member

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    WOW ...

    I have learned more about frack water in the last hour than I ever thought. To be honest I had never heard the term before now. :dunno:

    Drill Baby drill ...I'm that kind of person. If we have it here ... why buy it else where???

    Eminent domain ... I know all about it ... a state park is going in across our river... we are in the point hairs and will have to wait and see. Do I want to move ... No ... but may have to ... all for the better good ? We will see. ??? (same but differnt ...)

    I did a search on split estate ... came up with a novel, a documentay, a movie and differnt laws ... I watched a you tube ... interesting!


    And to be honest ... I thought Obama put a stop to all the drilling ... or did I miss something?
     
  9. BizzyB

    BizzyB BucketHunter

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    .....if you gave up the surface rights to your property it is because............are you ready for this?............it is because you sold them. No gas company can take your mineral rights. Apparently you sold those rights, now you are whining because you, well, sold those rights!

    Again. Totally. Out. Of. Touch.

    News Flash: Not everyone owns their own mineral rights. PA is rather unusual in that so many people do. But not everyone does. There are no surface rights in a split estate.

    Or didn't you know that?

    Of course not.

    Why not go post some articles about how gas wells are drilled by unicorns that fart rainbows and if you sing God Bless America loud enough, the gas rises magically to the surface? If you Drill Babies want to believe it hard enough, it must be true!
     
  10. BillM

    BillM BillM

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    I have a good

    I have a good friend that has a small farm close to my home.

    A few years ago , a number of people in my area got wealthy from leasing their property to some oil companies.

    While discussing this with my good friend, he made the comment that he wouldn't allow them on his property because of the noxious odor produced by an oil well.

    He then asked me if I would allow them to drill on my property to which I replied "Hell yes"!

    He then asked me , "but what about the odor"?

    I replied, "I don't believe I will be able to smell it on my new yacht in the Caribbean"! :rolleyes:
     
  11. The_Blob

    The_Blob performing monkey

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    well, if you feel that strongly you can give it to ME! ;) :D I'll find something to do on it...
     
  12. NaeKid

    NaeKid YourAdministrator, eh?

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    I live in the heart of oil-country, I make the parts-n-pieces of steel that is used in exploration, drilling, pumping, etc of oil (oil-sands, shale-gas, etc). Frac is quite simply using the heavy-weight of water to lift light-weight oil towards the surface to make it easier to take the stuff needed through the pipelines.

    You can do your own experiment with water and oil using a measuring cup (and make a batch of pancakes at the same time).

    The one thing that article doesn't make mention of is the fact that oil and gas naturally seeps towards the surface - even in our oilsands oil naturally wants to rise. Since the beginning of recorded history, oil has been seen flowing down the Athabasca River (the closest river to the Alberta OilSands projects), oil has been scooped-up from tar-pools (medieval Europe doing a tar-n-feather on criminals) and oil-sheen has been seen all over the GulfCoast (near Florida). We now know what it is and what it does to us, back then, it was just a curiosity .. but .. it is still a natural part of our planet.
     
  13. BizzyB

    BizzyB BucketHunter

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  14. Frugal_Farmers

    Frugal_Farmers Good ole country folk

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  15. The_Blob

    The_Blob performing monkey

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    I'm still waiting for BizzyB to hand over the deed to that land... :2thumb:
     
  16. horseman09

    horseman09 Well-Known Member

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    BizzyB, your sarcasm and hypocrisy is noted.

    Here's where your hypocrisy comes in. You have a computer. It takes a huge amount of energy to produce it, ship it and RUN it. I'm assuming you don't live in a hand dug cave, so I'm therefore assuming you live in a more or less traditional American home that consumed a huge amount of energy to produce the building materials and to build, and a huge amount of energy to run. I'm assuming you have a car or two -- oh! that's right! you have to have some way to get from Baltimore all the way up to PA to your private little hunting cabin! More energy to make the vehicle, ship it and of course, lots of energy to produce the fuel for your vehicle and, oh! some sort of energy consumption at your cabin.

    I'm thinking the Kennedy/offshore windmills brand of hypocrisy here. Let's ***** about those nasty gas companies, but, PS, lets keep the energy coming to me from somewhere for my personal pleasures and convenience as long as it does not adversely affect my recreation..................must I continue?

    When you can tell us all that you do not consume any commercially produced energy, I will gladly and humbly retract my hypocrit label of you.

    The Bradford County spill should come as no more of a surprise than a gasoline tank truck wrecking on the highway. Are you going to be screeching about that? Perhaps we should ban gasoline? But, of course, we can't do that because then how would BizzyB get to her hunting cabin?

    Can you name any nationally viable, let me say that again -- viable energy source that has a zero footprint and zero risk? No. Of course you can't. Accidents will always happen no matter what, and those with a hyper-emotional, hysterical, irrational ax to grind will forget about the realities of modern life and fixate on the irrelevant.

    Let's be honest here. You are very angry (perhaps unconciously at yourself?) because you bought your little utopia in the woods without first checking about the gas, oil and mineral rights. Someone else owns them, and when that someone else wants a return on their investment, you think it's unfair.

    Bottom line here, Bizzy......do your homework next time. When you buy property, make sure you --- YOU --- own the mineral rights. It will save a lot of whining.
     
  17. Magus

    Magus Scavenger deluxe

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    I'm deathly allergic to fluoride,I've been drinking distilled for 25 years.
     
  18. Concretin

    Concretin Member

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    I read this thread with interest and was reminded of 2 bumper stickers we had in grad school (Engineering Geology). Ban Mining, Let the Bas***ds Freeze to Death in the Dark and If It Can't Be Grown It Has To Be Mined.

    Extracting any mineral or maceral (the organic analogue of a mineral) is considered mining. We can stretch the definition a little further and include extracting any substance from the earth for beneficial usage. At any rate, if we continue to shut everything down we will soon be freezing to death in the dark.

    We need to realize that the concept of risk is inherent in any of our endeavors. There is no such thing as a risk free undertaking. That is a fiction put forth by socialists. I am willing to take the risk to continue drilling, just as I am willing to take the risk to survive any calamities which may befall me. YMMV
     
  19. TheAnt

    TheAnt Aesops Ant (not Aunt)

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    VERY interesting posts, just remind me not to get in an argument with Horseman! :surrender:
     
  20. Jimmy24

    Jimmy24 Member

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    Mineral rights are rare here in the south. Most were sold off 100 years ago. Large tracts were owned (and still are) by paper companies, who were looking for more income from their land.

    Oh btw every been around a paper mill.....odorous is not even close and it's for the life of the mill...30-50 yrs....:dunno:

    I've owned 7 different peices of land over the last 35 yrs and none of them included mineral rights. If you have a large piece you may have an issue some day. But the small acreage I've had, no one is interested. My ex-inlaws actually had 2 ponds dug, one pond dam repaired, 3 new gates and about 40 acres planted in pines for the oil wildcatter that tried to hit oil on their property. He didn't find it...they were happy for a 4 month inconvenence...:2thumb:

    We all use energy day that is pumped, mined or otherwise removed from the earth. Someone is gonna have to put up with a bad situation I'm sure. Not sure what else to do.

    Jimmy