The teachers union (SEIU), and Communism

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Jarhead0311, May 7, 2011.

  1. Jarhead0311

    Jarhead0311 Well-Known Member

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    Any time someone tries to tell you that public school teachers are doing the best job they can under terrible conditions and have only the kids' best interest at heart, show them this:



    If there was ever a better argument to pull kids out of public school, or to defund the entire government controlled school experiment altogether, I don't know what it is


    Zombie » SEIU drops mask, goes full commie
     
  2. Immolatus

    Immolatus Just getting started. Always.

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    Interesting pics in that article. You would think that kind of rally would really turn people off to their cause. Lenin posters? Really?
    Being a Libertarian I am not a fan of communism or unions in general, I would rather see a healthy third party enter the political fray, be it the Greenies, Socialists, or hopefully the Libertarians than see the Dems and Reps keep a (corrupt) stranglehold on this country.
    I think commies and socialists in this country get a bad rap due to McCarthy, Lenin and the cold war, and the 'us vs them' mentality that came from it.
    Is socialism really the devil its made out to be? The Cleaver family ideal could be seen as socialist itself, with the father making all of the money and financial decisions, even though everyone else obviously contributes to the 'cause'.
    I actually think communism is a good concept, especially since most people are on the lower end of the economic scale looking up at people who have (seemingly) everything they could want, and hold all of the power and wealth.

    The comment thread below the article sure degenerated pretty quickly!
     

  3. horseman09

    horseman09 Well-Known Member

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    A good concept?!

    Uhhhhh. Communism will has never and will never succeed at any governmental level for very long because it's ideology is contrary to the human psychy.

    Communism has killed more innocent people than any other political or religious ideology in the history of mankind. If measured in lives lost, either Stalin or Mao make Hitler look like little more than a Kindergarten bully.

    Again, if measured in lives lost, Communism makes Nazism look like a street corner gathering of low level mafia thugs.

    A good concept?!!!! Has America's education system failed us so miserably that -- in the face of 100 years of slaughter in the name of communism -- any American citizen can actually believe communism "is a good concept!!!!!"
     
  4. Immolatus

    Immolatus Just getting started. Always.

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    I meant on a more communal (pun intended) level not on a gumt level, where its forced upon you at gunpoint. Like a kibbutz.
    And any governmental or religious system can be used to the intents of its leaders for any reason, like wiping people out. Is Christianity at fault for the Crusades? Or Islam for a suicide bomber? A gun for a murder?
    Obviously Lenin/Mao/Hitler etc. were monsters, but that doesnt indict the whole system.
    That was kinda my point, we see communism as the USSR and Maoist China. If those people at the protests were trying to shove it down my throat, and take all my stuff in the name of the 'public good' (which our gumt does all the time) then I'd have an issue with them.

    Wait, what happened here? Why am I defending communism? They would want to take all my stuff. They can bite me. But they are certainly allowed to voice their opinions. I would highly doubt thats what those people want, because they dont truly understand. Our new commie overlords would take all of their stuff too.
    And as far as our educational system, I have always been a skeptic, especially when what I am being told is coming from a gumt employee.
    Care for some gumt cheese, comrade?
    :)
    If we were all poor, uneducated and disenfranchised, we might feel the same way.
     
  5. Bigdog57

    Bigdog57 Adventurer at large

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    America's teachers, by and large, DO NOT support these Communist enemies of our nation. THESE pics are mostly chicanos and their supporters for legalizing the Illegal Alien invasion. Nothing to do with our teachers.
    The problems we have with public education stems from the Liberal laws and activists, both in and outside the education system. Many good teachers are forced to 'teach' to a specific agenda, or they lose their jobs. They have their own families to support - do the math!
    I personally would, if I had my way, jail every one of those Red Flag waving barstages. Our "Free Speech Rights" however, allow them to do this.
    The first good step to taking our nation back is to VOTE OUT the current Communists in DC and the State Houses, and put our good citizens back in.
    THEn We The People can craft laws to lockout the Commies, Socialists and others of the Liberal World.
     
  6. Jarhead0311

    Jarhead0311 Well-Known Member

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    The same kind of signs were carried in Wisconsin.
     
  7. Bigdog57

    Bigdog57 Adventurer at large

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    Yep, you will see them nationwide. The Illegals are in every state, as are their supporters, and the Communist Union dregs. So what makes the connection specifically to TEACHERS? The teachers have their own unions, but NO affiliation with the SEIU thugs and criminals. Here in Florida, the teachers don't have to even belong to the union. Same with the rest of the Department of Education employees. Only some thirty percent or less of us are union members - I am NOT. I despise unions. But don't take this nonsense out on teachers. They don't deserve it.
     
  8. Virgil_cain

    Virgil_cain Active Member

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    Huh??? How could a Libertarian have any affection for Socialism or Communism? They are polar opposites. Either you do not truly understand Libertarianism or you do not understand Socialism/Communism.
     
  9. Immolatus

    Immolatus Just getting started. Always.

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    I'm not sure how to respond to that.
    Have we been so polarized that we cannot see any good at all in an opposing viewpoint? Thats certainly what the political establishment would want.
    And please dont tell me what I do or do not understand. Feel free to disagree with me, but do not tell me I am an idiot.
     
  10. tsrwivey

    tsrwivey Supporting Member

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    By taking out what came in between these two thoughts, I hope you see how mutually exclusive they are & maybe illustrate what I think Horseman was saying. On one hand, you don't want to give up your stuff. On the other, you sympathize with those who do want to take it. Greed, envy & jealousy are human nature & the very reason communism doesn't work.

    We are also prone to take the path of least resistance. Given a choice between working 60 hours to get "A" or working 2 hours to get "A", most folks are working 2 hours. Of the folks who still choose to work 60 hours (out of a sense of duty, enjoyment, whatever), a portion will grow envious of the 2 hour folks & eventually work less. :2thumb:

    Then there's the arguement that your paycheck is merely an extention of yourself. If you truly own your own body(that performs the task) & your own mind (with the knowledge/traits), how is it then that you don't own the fruits of them (your paycheck)? :dunno:
     
  11. Asatrur

    Asatrur Well-Known Member

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    Yes and like you said that is what the powers that be want, us squabbling over things like politics, religion, etc.
     
  12. horseman09

    horseman09 Well-Known Member

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    I would contend that squabbling and polarization between communists and capitalists is absolutey necessary because such differences are, in fact, the differences between tyranny and liberty.

    Sooooo, I will not apologize for defending liberty.
     
  13. Clarice

    Clarice Well-Known Member

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    IMHO the reason teachers are so important is they have these young minds that can be molded into what ever our government deems necessary. By the time they graduate from high school they have been so throughly indoctronated we don't have a chance to get them to think rationally. The trick is to start young and they are your's for life. With patients soon all us old fogies will have died out and they will have only nice quite sheeple to do their bidding.
     
  14. danerogers

    danerogers Active Member

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    THANKS Immolatus! Your recognition of the value of opposing viewpoints is very refreshing. And you are certainly correct in saying that some in the political establishment want polarization. The way to manipulate populations of people is to keep them angry and frightened and make them think they are being attacked by "the other side". During the Nuremburg trials, the Nazi Herman Goering said the following:

    "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

    So when you are told things that make you angry, make you feel like "they" want to take "your stuff", make you feel the need to silence "them" - Please, Please realize that you are likely being manipulated for some purpose that is not obvious to you. The reason this works is that throughout evolutionary history, humans lived in small clans limited in size by the available food supply within walking distance. Clans were in competition for resources with other clans and losing the competition could be fatal. The "other" was therefore considered as enemy. But within each clan, cooperation for the good of the group was also essential for survival - "individualism" was not a survival strategy! And of course, there was competition within the clan for status - high status conferring greater survival ability. Our brains are wired with competing values of self interest and communal interest, all the while being leery of "others". In my opinion, it is the balance between those competing values in each individual that creates our political beliefs.

    Listening to someone with an open mind and an understanding that the reality they express for themselves can be just as "true" as your own, allows you to learn. You may fully accept, fully reject, or pick and choose from their ideas. But in the end, you are better off for respectfully listening. This is why our first amendment rights have been vital to this country. And why dictators are forever trying to silence open expression.

    One final point. A market analyst that I have followed for 30 years (a libertarian if you wish to know!), says that rising markets and the accompanying optimism results in the "unit of we" becoming larger and more inclusive - meaning people generally get along better all the way up to global levels. In falling markets with the accompanying pessimism, the "unit of we" becomes smaller - the populations become more divided and fragmented. We entered the declining times back in 2000 when global markets peaked and have been more or less, sliding ever since. The divisiveness is growing and will lead to conflict unless we are aware of what is happening. I want a world for my kids and grandkids, where the divisiveness is minimized and cooperation is the norm. Maybe only a dreamer.
     
  15. Virgil_cain

    Virgil_cain Active Member

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    This has nothing to do with polarization, it's simple logic. If one political theory hold that X is true, and another political theory hold that not X is true, is it simply impossible for a person to believe both theories to be true simultaneously and be logically consistent. To think otherwise is simply mushy thinking.

    To put it in more concrete terms, Libertarianism holds that the best government is that which governs the least, that free men should be treated as individuals and that a high premium should be placed on individual liberty and on property rights, and that instilling great power in a central government is a dangerous undertaking and that those powers that are invested in a central government should be limited and well defined.

    Socialism on the other hand holds that the collective is more important than the individual, that a very powerful central government is required to manage all aspects of a society, from the economy at large to the details of what children are taught at school. Furthermore, it holds that personal property rights only extend to that point at which the needs of the collective outweigh the needs of the individual. Lastly, Socialism virtually requires the central government be invested with unconstrained power in order to be able to manage all the various tasks that such a government will take on.

    As you can see, these two world view are diametrically opposed. You can believe that Socialism is the way to go, or you can believe that Libertarianism is the right way, but you really can't believe both at the same time. You may think that being "non-polar" and believing in a some mixture of both makes you a better person or more sophisticated, but it really only means that you are either logically inconsistent or you don't understand the basics of these two political philosophies. In fact, it would be hard to pick two political world views that are more mutually exclusive than Socialism and Libertarianism.

    Now, if you want to be logically consistent you can believe either one of these systems, and if you don't care about logical consistency you can believe some mixture of the two I suppose, but you should be clear headed that you are in fact being inconsistent. I'm not after political polarization, but I do think clear thinking is in order.
     
  16. Asatrur

    Asatrur Well-Known Member

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    Sounds a lot like the new define neo-con right winger like W. I am no leftie, but at least they tell you they are pro-taxes, big-government etc. up front instead of lying to who.
     
  17. Virgil_cain

    Virgil_cain Active Member

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    Are you operating under the assumption that I am a fan of George W. Bush? Would you care to point out the inconsistency in my argument?
     
  18. tsrwivey

    tsrwivey Supporting Member

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    No one said anything about left or right, only liberty or tyranny. Virgil was arguing facts logically, attempting to participate in a civilized exchange & debate of ideas, but you go to insults & personal attacks? Why?
     
  19. rflood

    rflood Well-Known Member

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    Ahh Jarhead, glad to see you found the "Zombie". I've been keeping up with his blog for the past few years and the stuff he puts out there for photographic essays is something else. San Fransisco really does come across as the armpit of the US when you see some of his stories.
     
  20. Jarhead0311

    Jarhead0311 Well-Known Member

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    That's a confusing statement, how does the definitions of Socialism and Libertarianism have anything to do with neo-cons or George Bush? :confused:
    As you can see, these two world view are diametrically opposed. You can believe that Socialism is the way to go, or you can believe that Libertarianism is the right way, but you really can't believe both at the same time.

    That is a completely logical statement, you can't possess logic and believe that two diametrically opposed theories are both true.

    You may not be a lefty, but your defense of them make you sound like one.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2011