Prepared Society Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Greetings,

I have made a 12 minute video discussing this topic. Here is the link:


I believe the pre-tribulation rapture is not borne out by the Word of God. I feel it ignores the scripture showing us that we will suffer and be hated in these times, war will be made against us, we will be beheaded and killed for the testimony of our word etc. I feel like the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is contributing to lack of preparedness and the falling away in the body of Christ, when the faith of many will fail under persecution and difficulty as they thought they would never suffer.

In this video I display onscreen all of the Word of God I rely on in my interpretation as I discuss this topic, so please read the information in the video as well.

You are welcome to disagree, and have your own interpretations. I am open to discussion and consideration of others points of view and opinions, however, I feel a lot of scripture must be ignored or distorted to accept the belief of the pre-tribulation rapture.

We are told those who are in the light will not be taken as a thief, they will not be sleeping but being awake and aware of the signs (1 Thes 5:1-8). I see the many signs of the impending judgment of the Lord upon the earth.

The Word tells us of the saints suffering under persecution, being hated by all nations, delivered up to death by their families, killed during the first four seals, made war against by the beast, the dragon, the false-prophet, and their blood found in Babylon (Babylon destroyed Rev 18). I cannot rectify these many areas of the Word of God with the belief that all believers will be taken before the tribulation. We are told that not all who say they are believers are true believers (Matthew 7:21-23), we are told the day of the Lord will not come before an apostasy/falling away and the man of sin exalting himself in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Anyway, you are welcome to consider my video. You can read the video description under the video to get a good summary of my main contention here.

I have made this video and other videos on my channel because I felt a lot of the Word of God was being ignored. I am moving according to my feelings and drivings of my spirit. Again you are welcome to have your own opinions/interpretations, I am open to discussion on these topics.

Kind Regards, Christopher
 

·
Cowboy
Joined
·
3,568 Posts
Pre Tribulation, during or Post isn't important. It will happen.

What is important is that you confess your sins, ask for forgiveness and invite Jesus to come into your heart.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
784 Posts
lawlord IF I had the time and/ or inclination to do so I could destroy your statements. But won't go ahead and believe that nonsense, if you're still around when it happens you'll see,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
ThelazyL - what you say IS the most important. However, if people expect to be saved before any tribulation. If they expect to be taken from the earth, when the Word doesn't say this, they are setting themselves and their faith up for a fall. But what you say IS most important, absolutely. If you don't have the faith to begin with, there's no point worrying about falling away.

101airborne - it's not my statements you need to "destroy". But you need to overcome the Word of God, and the many areas that describe the saints suffering on earth during the tribulation. You can't because the pre-tribulation rapture is a false teaching. These areas of the Word are listed and displayed during my 12 minute video. My premise is that people should be prepared to be on the earth. Don't renounce God if you aren't taken away. Stand strong in your faith. If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how will you feel if you aren't taken from the earth like you might expect? Will you stand in your faith?

AmishHeart - Yep good job. If all of your hopes and expectations are that Jesus will take you away before you experience any suffering, that would be not being prepared just in case. Especially since the Word tells us we wont be taken from the earth.

Thanks for the comments.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,962 Posts
Lawlord, Just so we are clear --- I am agnostic, so I am not challenging your biblical interpretations. I am wondering why you are presenting your religious videos and outlooks on a Prepper site? I am trying to understand how your vision is helping ME to understand how to be self-sufficient and deal with the world I currently inhabit. The biblical future is not changeable (as I understand it) so it is left up to each individual to either believe or not. I have not blocked any members in the past but if you are not going to move off the religious topic, then I will lose nothing by blocking your posts.

This is not intended to offend your or your beliefs, simply to bring to your attention that the main focus of this site is being Prepared in all aspects of life, not just a christian life. JMHO
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Lawlord, Just so we are clear --- I am agnostic, so I am not challenging your biblical interpretations. I am wondering why you are presenting your religious videos and outlooks on a Prepper site? I am trying to understand how your vision is helping ME to understand how to be self-sufficient and deal with the world I currently inhabit. The biblical future is not changeable (as I understand it) so it is left up to each individual to either believe or not. I have not blocked any members in the past but if you are not going to move off the religious topic, then I will lose nothing by blocking your posts.

This is not intended to offend your or your beliefs, simply to bring to your attention that the main focus of this site is being Prepared in all aspects of life, not just a christian life. JMHO
Tmttactical - before I posted on this section of the forum I read the guidelines "This section is not for talking about religions, it is for talking about prepping that is affected by religion."

I offered this discussion about the pre-tribulation rapture being false because it goes towards preparations. If people believe in the pre-trib rapture then they aren't preparing by considering the Word of God, what it tells us will come. They won't prepare physically, and they are not likely to be mentally prepared if they believe they will be taken from the earth before disaster and they will never suffer.

In this way I believe it is relevant religious discussion related to prepping. My premise is that people should be prepared to be on the earth and to go through the wars, famines, disasters, persecution and tribulation described in the Bible.

This can involve nuclear strikes, economic collapse and a lot of topics discussed outside of the religious context. I want people to know that the Bible says they won't be taken from the earth, so they know to prepare themselves for the coming times.

Here is the link to part 5 of my end times summary video, which details mental, physical and spiritual preparations to take for the coming times. An important aspect of this is to know firstly that you are going to be on the earth during these times. That's why I made this thread and thought it was relevant tmttactical. You are welcome to remove it if you don't agree.

Here's the link to specific preparations I say should be taken, from a Biblical perspective but also goes towards physical/mental preparation to face disaster etc. I am saying that those who believe in Christ and the Bible should prepare themselves for what is said to be coming, not thinking they will escape. I felt it was relevant but I will focus my discussion on preparations (here is my relevant video on preparations, but it goes with the premise of this post that believers in Christ will be on the earth and will experience these things)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
784 Posts
101airborne - it's not my statements you need to "destroy". But you need to overcome the Word of God, and the many areas that describe the saints suffering on earth during the tribulation. You can't because the pre-tribulation rapture is a false teaching. These areas of the Word are listed and displayed during my 12 minute video. My premise is that people should be prepared to be on the earth. Don't renounce God if you aren't taken away. Stand strong in your faith. If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how will you feel if you aren't taken from the earth like you might expect? Will you stand in your faith?
WHATEVER you can go right ahead and believe what you want. I KNOW the truth! Like I said you'll find out the truth if you're around when the rapture happens!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I have amended the video title on my youtube video to "All Believers Taken" In The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a False Teaching! BE WARNED! for the following reason:

As Rev (3:8-10) says, the Lord will keep true believers from the trial that comes upon the world. There is Word that says this can be delivering them from evil (2 Peter 2:8-9, Lot being delivered from the trials of destruction of Soddom and Gomorrah by warning), and the Lord prays to His Father we not be taken from the earth but be kept from evil (John 17:15), but I cannot say ABSOLUTELY the Lord won't take true believers from the earth. I don't believe I will be taken from the earth, but I can't say for certain others wont be. If the Lord wants to take true believers who have served Him well from the earth I will be all too glad.

As such, if the Lord decides to do so, I cannot say the Lord is false or lying if He decides to do so, thus I MUST amend the title of my video. The content of my video, and the discussion still stands, but the certainty of my stating the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a FALSEHOOD only applies to the belief that all believers will be taken from the earth before tribulation. This is blatantly FALSE and is a FALSE TEACHING.

However, the Lord can keep true believers from the trials (Rev 3:8-10) in whatever way HE CHOOSES TO DO SO. I cannot say with certainty the way the Lord will do so, thus I had to amend my video title and description. I apologise for any misunderstandings or problems this may have caused. I want to be accurate and faithful to God's Word. But I also cannot assert absolute certainties where there are uncertainties. This is the reason for my editing of the video title and description, and though my discussion still stands I must curtail it to what I know is a certain falsehood, and not say that something is impossible where it MAY be possible. I hope you understand. Thank you, Christopher
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,104 Posts
Luke 21

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man
 

·
Winston Smith Sent Me
Joined
·
4,996 Posts
I think I killed brain cells reading through this thread.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,575 Posts
There are plenty of verses that support the pre-trib Rapture. The only way to reconcile verses that appear to contradict each other is to realize that Jesus will come back twice for believers: Before the tribulation and after the tribulation. Just as Jesus had to come to earth twice to fulfill every prophesy that said he would die but also have a kingdom that would never end.

Jesus said:

(Matthew 24:37-42 NIV) As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. {38} For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; {39} and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. {40} Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. {41} Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. {42} "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.


Now here's where it becomes really interesting. The antichrist, the world ruler, will enter into a seven year peace treaty with Israel. That will mark the beginning of the Tribulation. Check this out:

(Daniel 9:27 NIV) He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

So like I said earlier,

(Luke 12:39-40 NIV) But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. {40} You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

Anyone alive during the Great Tribulation will know the exact date of Jesus' return. It will be 2520 days (360 days x 7 years) after the antichrist signs the 7 year peace treaty with Israel. Yet Jesus says He will return at a time when nobody expects Him. He comes like a thief meaning no one even knows that He came back except by what or who is missing. Yet we have this too:

(Revelation 1:7 NIV) Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

So he comes as a thief when no one sees Him but also comes back when everyone sees Him. How is that possible? The only way is for Jesus to come back for believers at the pre-tribulation Rapture then come back for the church at the end of the tribulation.

The pre-trib Rapture is important not just because it's biblical truth but also because it teaches believers to be ready because we don't know when Jesus is coming back.
 

·
Resto
Joined
·
458 Posts
In order to understand what Rapture is and where its taught in the Bible, you must understand what the 7 years of Tribulation are and what Daniel says about it. Abraham establishes why there is a Pre Trib Rapture when he asked the Christophany if He would "Judge The Righteous With The Wicked". Christ said No. Now you must understand that the 7 years of Tribulation are from the time of the Law that Daniel spoke of at the end of "The Time Of The Gentiles". Paul even talked about the Fulfilling or End of the Gentile time. The 7 years are a time of God pouring out His Wrath in Judgment. IF Jesus took Gods Judgment and Wrath for me on the Cross, Then why would I be Here during those 7 years. If you read the "Revelation of John" "The Church" is not mentioned after chapter 3. At the end of chapter 3 John experiences Rapture. A Door Open in Heaven, A trumpet Blown like a Shout and he is in the spirit. The Angel asks him to "Come Up Here" in order to see what happens after the things that were in the 7 letters to the Churches. Heres the things a Christian must ask themselves about God. 1. Did Jesus take Gods Full wrath for my sin? 2. Was he judged in my Place? 3. If So, then I am no longer to experience Gods Wrath, so I will not be here during the 7 years. If you cant answer those questions you will never understand or see Rature taught in scripture outside of what paul says to the Thessalonians. Pre Trib Rapture is spelled out in "Type" all through out the Old Testament. You will be Blind to it if you don't "Know" Christ, The Holy Spirit wont show it to you. It doesn't mean you wont go and aren't "Saved". Some who Know Christ can see it in Scripture. "Line Upon Line" "Precept Upon Precept", it wont make sense if you are out of Sequence.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Resto-

We are not the subject of God's judgment. True believers are not. We are not appointed unto God's wrath (1 Thes 5:9). We are told in Rev 3:10 true believers will be protected from the trial. I don't believe this means we will be taken from the earth. For example Lot was protected from the trials (2 Peter 2:7-9) but not taken from the earth. The Lord prays to His father we not be taken from the earth but protected from evil (John 17:15). What scripture can you show that we will be taken from the earth? I don't say it is impossible. But that all Christians are going to be taken from the earth contradicts many sections in the Revelation that talk about saints suffering on earth, beheaded, made war against etc.

Again we are not the subject of God's wrath. Jesus died for all of the sins of humanity, all there ever would be. We are His servants on the earth. There are important roles to fulfill during the tribulation and end times period. We are told that "those to remain alive" (1 Thes 4:17) are transformed. If the church is taken away, there would only be darkness on the world, nothing to balance the darkness, no light to draw people to. The Lord will not remove the light from the earth, no way. We already know if we stay true to the Lord unto our deaths, we will be given the crown of life (Revelation 2:10), but one of the most important things, aside from our fates is the fates of others. There are many souls in darkness. If all of the church is removed from the earth, who is left to bring back souls to the Lord? There must be people left to work the Lord's will in bringing people back to Him. The two witnesses of God are on the earth during the GT, they are protected but eventually are killed, but resurrected to heaven. We have 144,000 sealed by God so they aren't harmed, they are said to be on the earth (as the locusts can't harm them). There is important work to do on the earth to bring people back to the Lord.

I can accept that some people may go to the Lord early, as Revelation 3:10 gives enough room that the Lord could take people from the earth, but there is a strong reason for why the church will remain on the earth. So I answered your questions you posed, yes the Lord accounted for all the sins of humanity, yes we are not subject to the Lord's wrath, but that does not mean we will be taken from the earth. The Lord can deliver us from evil while we are on the earth. There is important work to do on the earth. Suffering and giving our lives in faith is a glorious sacrifice (the Lord says there is no greater love than giving your life for a friend, well what of giving your life for the Lord), we are told many will give their lives for the Lord. The scripture plainly tells us the beast will make war with the saints, they will be beheaded. The false-prophet will decree all who do not worship the beast be killed. Believers in Christ will be hated and hunted. What do you have to say about those areas of the scripture?

I am familiar with the verses and justifications people use for the pre-trib rapture, however, it doesn't convince me. It doesn't sit with my understanding of what the scripture says, it contradicts blatantly different areas of the scripture, and I don't think it will happen. It's not impossible the Lord can take true believers from the earth (Rev 3:10), but He doesn't say He will. I don't find the pre-trib rapture has enough support in the scripture for me to believe it, and the belief that all believers in Christ will all leave before tribulation is blatantly wrong and contradictory. Anyway, you are welcome to believe what you want. Thanks for your post.

BillS -

We know not the day, and the day will come as a thief. However, we are told, 1 Thessalonians 5:3-8 KJV "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation."

We are told those who are not in darkness, the day will not overtake them as a thief, for they are in the light and children of the day, and they watch and are sober. They are not sleeping but are sober. Those that are asleep are drunken and will be taken as a thief.

While we know not the day, we will see the signs, and we will be aware and watching so the day doesn't overtake us as a thief. This is what this scripture tells us. There are other areas of scripture talking about keeping oil in lamps etc. Matthew 24:4-5, the wise had oil in their lamps while the others slumbered and slept. Personally I see the many signs of God poured out that we are on the verge of the end times. I don't expect people to agree with me, but I see the signs of impending global war, economic catastrophe, increasing wickedness and perversion, the emergence of Satanism and totalitarian government etc. We have actions taken against Judea etc. Signs in the sky, earth, weather, etc. All of these signs, plus dreams visions and experiences of the brethren tell us we are on the verge of these times.

Yeah the GT seems to occur when the abomination of desolation is setup Matthew 24:15-22. No we cannot know the exact time, even by assuming it is perfectly seven years. For Jesus tells us those days will be shortened (Matthew 24:21-22). The beast is said to rule for only 3.5 years (Revelation 13:5). The beast is the one who sets up the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:31, Daniel 9:27).

We are told the day of the Lord will not arrive before there is the falling away/apostacy/rebellion/departure and the man of sin exalting himself as God, 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 KJV "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

The Lord coming as a thief, and the Lord actually being visible for all to see are not inconsistent. He will come as a surprise. But when He does come, ALL WILL SEE. There is no contradiction there. Nobody can tell you when He will come, nobody can say the Lord is coming tomorrow or on another day. The day will be unknown, only the Father knows. However, when the Lord come, ALL WILL BE AWARE.

He arrives with great power and glory Matthew 24:29-31 after the tribulation of those days at the trumpet. This is the final trumpet 1 Corinthians 15:52 and the trumpet described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. This describes the changing of the bodies and resurrection, which occurs at Revelation 20:4, the return of Christ. I believe all who die during the tribulation will be with the Lord (Revelation 7), and those who are alive and remaining will be raptured and changed upon the Lord's return (post-trib rapture), His return to destroy the beast, false-prophet, dragon and armies of the earth.

What is your opinion on some of the areas of scripture I mentioned, and also what are some of the other scriptures supporting the position Jesus will come back twice? I showed you the verse that shows we will know the times are upon us and those in light will not be taken as a thief. Thanks for your response.
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top