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I work in non-profit and have travelled in some of the poorest places in the world. In these third-world countries everything is falling down, covered in trash, etc. It was odd to me that they don't constantly work to make their world a better place, but I discovered that it is because there is no real gain. No one is going to compensate them for their labor.

That leads me to a thought. In event of TEOTWAWKI the only people well stocked with the essential needs are going to be preppers. I have heard multiple people talking about how we will have to hide, fight, etc. to keep our supplies, but I would challenge that their perspective is wrong. We would suddenly have the power to lead in rebuilding. We would be able to hire people (paying them with food, water, ammo, and other supplies) to rebuild the community.

We would hit a point where we could hide our supplies and go underground, causing the community we live in to fall into a similar situation to what I described in third-world countries, OR we could lead the masses to rebuild by offering vital essentials as compensation. We could be the only thing keeping the world from completely falling apart.

Any thoughts?
 

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I like the idea. But what comes first to my mind is, 'I don't have enough preps to go around.'

Your point is excellent that people who are prepared for the collapse could become leaders after the collapse. All the more reason to know who has the means to do so, because they will become the puppet masters. I wish I could be more positive, but there it is.

Besides not having preps on a large enough scale to go around, there's also the issue that preppers tend to be independent-minded (one has to be to not be a sheeple). In order to pool enough resources together in a post-collapse world, we would need a collective of preppers, and I don't see that happening...
 

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I only have enough for me and my family. In a post-collapse world community projects aren't going to matter much by then anyway.

If I was a billionaire I might be able to feed and arm the city of 20,000 that I live in. But that would only draw the attention of the government who would probably come in and take what we had.
 

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While those with the foresight to prepare may be ahead of a recovery curve, there is a lot more to leadership than foresight.

In fact, I might caution people to be wary of anyone who attempts to assert themselves as a leaders. In desperate times, people will cling to anyone who seems to provide answers and direction. True leaders will rise to the occasion when needed.
 

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I work in non-profit and have travelled in some of the poorest places in the world. In these third-world countries everything is falling down, covered in trash, etc. It was odd to me that they don't constantly work to make their world a better place, but I discovered that it is because there is no real gain. No one is going to compensate them for their labor.

That leads me to a thought. In event of TEOTWAWKI the only people well stocked with the essential needs are going to be preppers. I have heard multiple people talking about how we will have to hide, fight, etc. to keep our supplies, but I would challenge that their perspective is wrong. We would suddenly have the power to lead in rebuilding. We would be able to hire people (paying them with food, water, ammo, and other supplies) to rebuild the community.

We would hit a point where we could hide our supplies and go underground, causing the community we live in to fall into a similar situation to what I described in third-world countries, OR we could lead the masses to rebuild by offering vital essentials as compensation. We could be the only thing keeping the world from completely falling apart.

Any thoughts?
I'm sure there's more issues than just compensation.

If I knew everything I did was going to be followed by someone destroying it I might be more included to just not do it.

But I agree, when the grasshoppers get hungry the ants will be king.
 

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The wanderer
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Our rural 'neighborhood' has talked about post-SHTF and projects we could work together on, like community wheat fields or even hay to feed horses (work animals and transportation), however sooner or later one will say something out of another's earshot about so-and-so won't do their share of the work, and so-and-so has more kids than anyone else so they'd want more than their share, and so on.
 

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Seeking The Truth
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I work in non-profit and have travelled in some of the poorest places in the world. In these third-world countries everything is falling down, covered in trash, etc. It was odd to me that they don't constantly work to make their world a better place, but I discovered that it is because there is no real gain. No one is going to compensate them for their labor.

That leads me to a thought. In event of TEOTWAWKI the only people well stocked with the essential needs are going to be preppers. I have heard multiple people talking about how we will have to hide, fight, etc. to keep our supplies, but I would challenge that their perspective is wrong. We would suddenly have the power to lead in rebuilding. We would be able to hire people (paying them with food, water, ammo, and other supplies) to rebuild the community.

We would hit a point where we could hide our supplies and go underground, causing the community we live in to fall into a similar situation to what I described in third-world countries, OR we could lead the masses to rebuild by offering vital essentials as compensation. We could be the only thing keeping the world from completely falling apart.

Any thoughts?
Nothing personal but we need help ourselves.Soon we will be just like these places you go to give your service to,charity begins at home,your nations dying.
Running around the world trying to help people who live in cultures of violence is foolish,imo.All we do is feed their enemies and build up armies against them.In the long run we cause more persecution of the ones we try to help.
Also its like losing your job and having problems feeding your own,then going to the homeless shelter and bringing in many more to feed. :nuts:
These do gooders are filling up this nation with more to feed and care for.Especially the catholic church who brings in millions from latan nations then puts them on welfare for others to feed.
What part of we are broke and going under don't people get!
 

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Ten or twenty thousand people in need of food is not the insurmountable problem if they are prepared to work under the direction of someone who knows what they need to be doing.

I grew up on a grain farm and the neighbor raised cattle using the land that would not grow grain, and the grain that was generally of insufficient quality to sell for human consumption.

Both farms had chickens.

And my point is that standing on the dirt road between the two farms in the fall after harvest there was right there, immediate capacity to feed probably ten thousand people.

The problems arise when people are not prepared to do the difficult manual work required to hand process all that meat and grain. Without the transportation, the processing plants, processing food so it can be eaten is rather extensive work.

Most do not have the knowledge nor the willingness to do the work required. Money will not help with providing food that was not produced because people will not do the work. And confiscation of the food that does exist will only work once.

And then there is the preparation work, and the direct work of producing the next round of food after SHTF because without the massive equipment and inputs currently being used, producing the next crop is also a great deal of work by the people who are actually going to eat it.
 

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Seeking The Truth
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Our rural 'neighborhood' has talked about post-SHTF and projects we could work together on, like community wheat fields or even hay to feed horses (work animals and transportation), however sooner or later one will say something out of another's earshot about so-and-so won't do their share of the work, and so-and-so has more kids than anyone else so they'd want more than their share, and so on.
Exactly! Even families will turn on each other WTSHTF.Inlaws and outlaws will be like the Hatfields and McCoys.
:eek:
 

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I work in non-profit and have travelled in some of the poorest places in the world. In these third-world countries everything is falling down, covered in trash, etc. It was odd to me that they don't constantly work to make their world a better place, but I discovered that it is because there is no real gain. No one is going to compensate them for their labor.

That leads me to a thought. In event of TEOTWAWKI the only people well stocked with the essential needs are going to be preppers. I have heard multiple people talking about how we will have to hide, fight, etc. to keep our supplies, but I would challenge that their perspective is wrong. We would suddenly have the power to lead in rebuilding. We would be able to hire people (paying them with food, water, ammo, and other supplies) to rebuild the community.

We would hit a point where we could hide our supplies and go underground, causing the community we live in to fall into a similar situation to what I described in third-world countries, OR we could lead the masses to rebuild by offering vital essentials as compensation. We could be the only thing keeping the world from completely falling apart.

Any thoughts?
You are essentially talking about seizing the opportunity to create your own feudal system by installing yourself at the top and insisting that your vassals follow your orders in exchange for your protection and direction. I understand that this is not your immediate intention, but that will be the result.

Nothing wrong with that, per se, but understand that this is what you are proposing.
 

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. True leaders will rise to the occasion when needed.
I humbly submit the president and congress as stellar examples of 'leaders'.
:rolleyes:

You are essentially talking about seizing the opportunity to create your own feudal system by installing yourself at the top and insisting that your vassals follow your orders in exchange for your protection and direction. I understand that this is not your immediate intention, but that will be the result.

Nothing wrong with that, per se, but understand that this is what you are proposing.
All hail our future overlord, Emperor Keepitsimple!

I am no leader of anyone. I aint even the leader of my household. I am the packmule. My ideas/thoughts are pretty abstract.
I agree with all who said they dont want to attract attention.
I only wish I lived in some kind of community where we would band together for any reason, food, defense, hell a pickup bball game.
We have a shared driveway, and we have lived here the longest of the 4 houses, and we dont know our neighbors. We like it that way. I would feel better if I knew them come SHTF, but I cant imagine anyone thinking the way I do.

I have also been to some third world countries, and hell even S.E. (Southeast Washington DC, some not so nice places down there) where whole areas are run down. In SE, I assume that people just dont care, and see it as someone elses responsibility to clean up the mess.
I dont understand why people with no job in a third world country wouldnt at least clean up the trash in their neighborhoods.
My father is in Nicaragua right now building houses for the extremely poor who have nothing. I went with him 2 years ago, and it was the most incredible experience I've ever had. the work was insanely grueling working in 95 degree weather with 90% humidity in the jungle. The joy we brought to these peoples lives was truly uplifting, and that was the reward in itself.
Seeing trash all over the place seemed very odd to me. For the most part, they had very little else to do, why not clean up after yourself?
 

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Keep It Simple... I applaud you and strength and forethought to put it out here on the public forum. You are correct preppers and that mentality will survive and thrive and they will ultimately do so through sharing and teaching. I am an ardent proponent of being prepared not just with food storage but with know how of the basic life skills as basic as how to build a fire w/out matches. I do assert as well that we get what we create, while I don't run around advertising and boasting of my preps I do acknowledge them and in doing so show others there is a way to thrive. Thanks for the positive note we often get so caught up in the what ifs or when this happens we forget we are always creating, create what you want.
 

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It's a great thought, but I think of the entitlement mentality people have now. If they won't work for it today, will they work for it tomorrow? Many want something for nothing, so...
 

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Seeking The Truth
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I humbly submit the president and congress as stellar examples of 'leaders'.
:rolleyes:

All hail our future overlord, Emperor Keepitsimple!

I am no leader of anyone. I aint even the leader of my household. I am the packmule. My ideas/thoughts are pretty abstract.
I agree with all who said they dont want to attract attention.
I only wish I lived in some kind of community where we would band together for any reason, food, defense, hell a pickup bball game.
We have a shared driveway, and we have lived here the longest of the 4 houses, and we dont know our neighbors. We like it that way. I would feel better if I knew them come SHTF, but I cant imagine anyone thinking the way I do.

I have also been to some third world countries, and hell even S.E. (Southeast Washington DC, some not so nice places down there) where whole areas are run down. In SE, I assume that people just dont care, and see it as someone elses responsibility to clean up the mess.
I dont understand why people with no job in a third world country wouldnt at least clean up the trash in their neighborhoods.
My father is in Nicaragua right now building houses for the extremely poor who have nothing. I went with him 2 years ago, and it was the most incredible experience I've ever had. the work was insanely grueling working in 95 degree weather with 90% humidity in the jungle. The joy we brought to these peoples lives was truly uplifting, and that was the reward in itself.
Seeing trash all over the place seemed very odd to me. For the most part, they had very little else to do, why not clean up after yourself?
CULTURE,VALUES.You will never understand or change it.Only they can change their lifestyles and future.
I don't have to go to these places I know others who visit all over the world for security reasons,where armed guards take them around.
The food and supplies usually get into the hands of the peopels persecuters.
Its beginning to happen here already.many brought into our nation 'refugees' return their nations militant camps 'on our dime'to train to kill our stupid ass!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Besides not having preps on a large enough scale to go around, there's also the issue that preppers tend to be independent-minded (one has to be to not be a sheeple). In order to pool enough resources together in a post-collapse world, we would need a collective of preppers, and I don't see that happening...
You make a great point, but lets say it for what it is. After reading many of your thoughts the overwhelming consensus is "F*** everyone else I am taking care of me!" (With a few exceptions) Do none of y'all recognize that it is that exact mentality that is leading to the collapse of our country?

While those with the foresight to prepare may be ahead of a recovery curve, there is a lot more to leadership than foresight.

In fact, I might caution people to be wary of anyone who attempts to assert themselves as a leaders. In desperate times, people will cling to anyone who seems to provide answers and direction. True leaders will rise to the occasion when needed.
A good point Turtle, but without leaders their is no order at all. I agree we should always be cautious of leaders and not follow mindlessly, but if no one follows then you have no order ... hopefully I don't have to argue that order is necessary. We will have the position to lead (not dictate) in order to create order out of chaos.

Our rural 'neighborhood' has talked about post-SHTF and projects we could work together on, like community wheat fields or even hay to feed horses (work animals and transportation), however sooner or later one will say something out of another's earshot about so-and-so won't do their share of the work, and so-and-so has more kids than anyone else so they'd want more than their share, and so on.
Of course you will. I didn't mean to imply that we would have the opportunity to return to the Garden of Eden and live happily in bliss (although I am totally pro-nudity :2thumb: ) That doesn't mean that community doesn't work. There will be problems in any system, but the desire to create a system is necessary.

Nothing personal but we need help ourselves.Soon we will be just like these places you go to give your service to,charity begins at home,your nations dying.
Running around the world trying to help people who live in cultures of violence is foolish,imo.All we do is feed their enemies and build up armies against them.In the long run we cause more persecution of the ones we try to help.
Also its like losing your job and having problems feeding your own,then going to the homeless shelter and bringing in many more to feed. :nuts:
These do gooders are filling up this nation with more to feed and care for.Especially the catholic church who brings in millions from latan nations then puts them on welfare for others to feed.
What part of we are broke and going under don't people get!
I don't even know how to respond to this ... IMAO you are insane. I assume you are one of them that is hoping for Armageddon just so you can shoot people. That being said, I will give it a shot.

Even in the economic crisis we are currently in, the poorest American (ie Homeless living under a bridge) is still in the top 20% of the world's wealth. Your inference that anyone showing compassion is driving us to becoming broke is insane and if people buy into your selfish ideals then we will lose all control and you will get your chance to go on a shooting spree.

If we lose all of our ethics, morals and compassion than we are no more than savages ... scratch that, we would be less than savages. We would be less than animals. There is no example of the selfishness you are describing.

You are essentially talking about seizing the opportunity to create your own feudal system by installing yourself at the top and insisting that your vassals follow your orders in exchange for your protection and direction. I understand that this is not your immediate intention, but that will be the result.

Nothing wrong with that, per se, but understand that this is what you are proposing.
hahaha That is a slightly pessimistic way to state it, but ya I guess there is truth in it. Without our forefathers doing a similar task we would not have these great United States of America.

All hail our future overlord, Emperor Keepitsimple!

I am no leader of anyone. I aint even the leader of my household. I am the packmule. My ideas/thoughts are pretty abstract.
I agree with all who said they dont want to attract attention.
I only wish I lived in some kind of community where we would band together for any reason, food, defense, hell a pickup bball game.
We have a shared driveway, and we have lived here the longest of the 4 houses, and we dont know our neighbors. We like it that way. I would feel better if I knew them come SHTF, but I cant imagine anyone thinking the way I do.
You better have saluted me or you are the first one cutoff from supplies. :)

I am not suggesting that all preppers will have to become leaders or we will all die. I am suggesting that we will be in a position of authority whether we meant to be or not.

I have also been to some third world countries, and hell even S.E. (Southeast Washington DC, some not so nice places down there) where whole areas are run down. In SE, I assume that people just dont care, and see it as someone elses responsibility to clean up the mess.
I dont understand why people with no job in a third world country wouldnt at least clean up the trash in their neighborhoods.
My father is in Nicaragua right now building houses for the extremely poor who have nothing. I went with him 2 years ago, and it was the most incredible experience I've ever had. the work was insanely grueling working in 95 degree weather with 90% humidity in the jungle. The joy we brought to these peoples lives was truly uplifting, and that was the reward in itself.
Seeing trash all over the place seemed very odd to me. For the most part, they had very little else to do, why not clean up after yourself?
You are one of the few people who probably really knows what I am talking about. I don't know why they don't do the obvious things we would think to do like pick up the trash. I assume it is because of a lack of compensation and/or reward, but they are just assumptions. I'm sure there is far more to it.

Keep It Simple... I applaud you and strength and forethought to put it out here on the public forum. You are correct preppers and that mentality will survive and thrive and they will ultimately do so through sharing and teaching. I am an ardent proponent of being prepared not just with food storage but with know how of the basic life skills as basic as how to build a fire w/out matches. I do assert as well that we get what we create, while I don't run around advertising and boasting of my preps I do acknowledge them and in doing so show others there is a way to thrive. Thanks for the positive note we often get so caught up in the what ifs or when this happens we forget we are always creating, create what you want.
Thank you Naturesmagick! Maybe there are a few optimists with me in this crowd afterall. :2thumb:

It's a great thought, but I think of the entitlement mentality people have now. If they won't work for it today, will they work for it tomorrow? Many want something for nothing, so...
Agreed. That is the biggest problem in our country/culture. I think if we stopped giving everything to them then they would start working to earn it, because the alternative would be death (in the case of food and water). That or they would learn to go without which the obesity in our country suggests would not be a bad thing.

CULTURE,VALUES.You will never understand or change it.Only they can change their lifestyles and future.
I don't have to go to these places I know others who visit all over the world for security reasons,where armed guards take them around.
The food and supplies usually get into the hands of the peopels persecuters.
Its beginning to happen here already.many brought into our nation 'refugees' return their nations militant camps 'on our dime'to train to kill our stupid ass!
You have listened to too many pessimist friends. Within international food-aid less than 5% is stolen (or gets "into the hands of the people's persecuters.") Granted that is still way too much, but it also means 95% is entering the bellies of the people starving to death. (Please no one challenge whether they are starving to death. I have seen it with my own eyes and will post pictures if questioned.) You also assume that everyone has the ability to "change it." While in our country that is true because we are free. Other countries do not offer the same opportunities.

Sorry to all for the ridiculously long reply
 

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KeepItSimple, after reading all the posts again I think that some will be followed because they are leaders. A true leader is a leader because people will follow them. People trust them and know they are better off standing behind them (in the sense of supporting them). Someone that just wants to lord over people is not a leader, they are a ruler. Not all rulers are leaders. I will lead if put in a leadership position because thats how I was raised but I am not going to be going out and looking for people to boss around. You are correct, there will be a lot of folks looking for local leaders to emerge to show them what to do. You are correct that there is a place for preppers in that but taking that responsibility is a huge deal and needs long and hard consideration. If you are of that calibur, I salute you, but as others have said being a prepper doesnt a leader make.

As for the thoughts on third world (or first world) countries and why they dont even just pick up after themselves: I think it has a lot to do with folks not taking responsibility for the way they live, their surroundings, their situation. In some cases this is because they dont have the freedom which should result in their taking responsibility. In other cases I think it is actually their culture to deny responsibility and leave everything to someone else to do. I can see our culture moving in that direction. I see so many homes with trash all around them -- nobody keeps up with their own stuff. Ive been in other folks houses and they arent just unkept, they are GROSS! I am responsible for the upkeep of my home, for looking my best when I walk out the door. I dont leave trash laying around. If I go camping I leave the site cleaner than I found it. If I am at someones house I clean up after myself. If I use a public restroom I flush the toilet and throw away my paper towels in the wastebasket. Its how I was brought up -- to take responsibility for my actions, my surroundings, etc.
 

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Keep it Simple I see your the Pied Piper of 'Rules For Radicals';
if you can't win an argument with the truth and facts,than just accuse and make your opponant look bad with lies;if this does'nt work bring ou the race card;and of course the all mighty claim that the person your aguring with is a terrorist or wants to " SHOOT AND KILL PEOPLE".I've never advacated volence here.
Are you an illegal or just a one world promoting socialist? Either way this is still america,liberals have'nt completely destroyed it yet and we are called a nation because we have our own culture,language ,values and borders.Now go back to where ever you can do the most harm and leave us IN PEACE.
 

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Keep It Simple... I applaud you and strength and forethought to put it out here on the public forum. You are correct preppers and that mentality will survive and thrive and they will ultimately do so through sharing and teaching. I am an ardent proponent of being prepared not just with food storage but with know how of the basic life skills as basic as how to build a fire w/out matches. I do assert as well that we get what we create, while I don't run around advertising and boasting of my preps I do acknowledge them and in doing so show others there is a way to thrive. Thanks for the positive note we often get so caught up in the what ifs or when this happens we forget we are always creating, create what you want.
I'm sure you do agree,since you came along bout the same time as your adversary here did.
Unlike whatever group or place yall came from,we Americans don't think another man should be forced to provide for us,thats communism.
Charity is a choice,a free act of giving.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
KeepItSimple, after reading all the posts again I think that some will be followed because they are leaders. A true leader is a leader because people will follow them. People trust them and know they are better off standing behind them (in the sense of supporting them). Someone that just wants to lord over people is not a leader, they are a ruler. Not all rulers are leaders. I will lead if put in a leadership position because thats how I was raised but I am not going to be going out and looking for people to boss around. You are correct, there will be a lot of folks looking for local leaders to emerge to show them what to do. You are correct that there is a place for preppers in that but taking that responsibility is a huge deal and needs long and hard consideration. If you are of that calibur, I salute you, but as others have said being a prepper doesnt a leader make.

As for the thoughts on third world (or first world) countries and why they dont even just pick up after themselves: I think it has a lot to do with folks not taking responsibility for the way they live, their surroundings, their situation. In some cases this is because they dont have the freedom which should result in their taking responsibility. In other cases I think it is actually their culture to deny responsibility and leave everything to someone else to do. I can see our culture moving in that direction. I see so many homes with trash all around them -- nobody keeps up with their own stuff. Ive been in other folks houses and they arent just unkept, they are GROSS! I am responsible for the upkeep of my home, for looking my best when I walk out the door. I dont leave trash laying around. If I go camping I leave the site cleaner than I found it. If I am at someones house I clean up after myself. If I use a public restroom I flush the toilet and throw away my paper towels in the wastebasket. Its how I was brought up -- to take responsibility for my actions, my surroundings, etc.
All solid points and I agree that not everyone is built to be a leader of multitudes. You are also accurately pointing out that leaders do not chose to be leaders, but are made leaders because people start following them. I think it is very likely that when TEOTWAWKI comes, we preppers will be forced into positions of leadership because other people will start to follow us as examples. Instead of hiding in bunkers shooting everyone that looks to us for leadership because we are paranoid that they are going to gut us and take all of our possessions, we should view it as a responsibility to continue leading through example (and possibly from a position of authority).
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Keep it Simple I see your the Pied Piper of 'Rules For Radicals';
if you can't win an argument with the truth and facts,than just accuse and make your opponant look bad with lies;if this does'nt work bring ou the race card;and of course the all mighty claim that the person your aguring with is a terrorist or wants to " SHOOT AND KILL PEOPLE".I've never advacated volence here.
Are you an illegal or just a one world promoting socialist? Either way this is still america,liberals have'nt completely destroyed it yet and we are called a nation because we have our own culture,language ,values and borders.Now go back to where ever you can do the most harm and leave us IN PEACE.
I'm sure you do agree,since you came along bout the same time as your adversary here did.
Unlike whatever group or place yall came from,we Americans don't think another man should be forced to provide for us,thats communism.
Charity is a choice,a free act of giving.
Your politics must be very challenged if you have pinned me for a communist, socialist, liberal, or even moderate. I am about as ultra-conservative as you get. All be it, looking over my original response to you it was harsh and you have accurately accused me of attacking. My apologies.

I'll let the rest of what I have said stand for itself.
 
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