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I think we should leave which version of the Bible is the best up to God and not let the Word become an arguing point by men who have decided they know better. Such men have been "bastardizing" the Word and the Church since day one.

Back to the point of this thread: My wife will teach the kids reading, writing and arithmetic. I will teach them how to shoot, kill and survive. If we are talking about an apocalyptic event, I don't think calculus will be near as important as say how to grow tomatoes (short term anyway). Education means very different things to different people and post-SHTF education means learning sustainability and survival.
 

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RockyMountainCanadian
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24th edition hardcover, with handbook. Both books together I got on ebay for $40.

I also got an 11th edition (pretty old) that came with ALL OF THE OLD MAN'S NOTEBOOKS!!! I could toss the book... the amount of info this ol' fella wrote down is priceless!!!
I think I paid $20

An amazing amount of geometry and trig can be solved using the tables and charts in the Machinery's Handbook.
You got a full package 24th edition for $40.00 that is CHEAP, keep it up and we are changing you member description to "He who finds deals"
 

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This isn't really the best spot for this but couldn't find a better place where it fits. I read a thread on another forum and it got me thinking. The thread was about post SHTF mathematics, and if/how people would take care of "figuring" without modern technology. If there are no more calculators, computers and such. How would people figure what they would need to build a house? We take stuff like that for advantage. Even more important is what about future generations? Now I'm talking a post-apocalyptic, TEOTWAWKI no near future restoration of normality. How do people educate their children? Can you teach your kids? Do you know someone who can, past the basics of addition, subtraction, and such?

Most of the preppers I know don't have or have even thought about any plan for this. It like entertainment is something "for a way down the road". While we don't have any kids the wife and I do have family members who either have or plan to have kids. Several of them are members of our "group". So we're lucky as my wife has her masters degree and teaches all levels from very basic ( grade school level almost) math to graduate level college courses at a local college.
Has anyone else prepared for this?
I planned for the kid I couldn't raise.I stole every textbook I ever had.
Any mid 60's textbook is gold!
 

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I think we should leave which version of the Bible is the best up to God and not let the Word become an arguing point by men who have decided they know better. Such men have been "bastardizing" the Word and the Church since day one.

Back to the point of this thread: My wife will teach the kids reading, writing and arithmetic. I will teach them how to shoot, kill and survive. If we are talking about an apocalyptic event, I don't think calculus will be near as important as say how to grow tomatoes (short term anyway). Education means very different things to different people and post-SHTF education means learning sustainability and survival.
I think that Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven did a good job in Lucifer's Hammer in showing how this might work in a PAW. You never know what kind of knowledge you need when you're facing a cannibal army trying to invade your protected valley. That valley had a whole bunch of ranchers and farmers and blacksmtihs and people with other useful skills needed for day to day living but what really saved their bacon was a diabetic rocket scientist, a McGyver of sorts, who managed to brew up mustard gas from pool cleaning chemicals.

The road to rebuilding society is going to always involve specialization of different sorts and we should take care not to lose knowledge because once it's lost it becomes very difficult to rediscover that knowledge via independent research.

I'm thinking that we'll eventually find equilibrium in that new society such that it matches what used to be - patrons directly supporting the egghead, parents directly supporting the school marm and so on.

The real high end and abstract research being conducted will find no patrons, so the high energy physicist will be SOOL but to get to that high level of specialization he had to demonstrate proficiency with more rudimentary physics and that knowledge will be useful to various communities and just as important that high energy physicist will be a smart cookie no matter that the knowledge he has buried in his noggin is of no use to anyone, his intelligence, just by itself, will be useful for general problem solving in the community. Keep in mind that the US Army found that tank gunners who are smarter shoot more accurately than tank gunners who are dimmer. What does intelligence have to do with shooting straight? Not much, but apparently there is more to shooting successfully than just aiming accurately.

The school marm will still have to pull her weight during harvest time and do other chores, but her work load will be cut in order to free up time for her to teach the kids, and the same with the physicist who strolled into the valley. That microsociety won't have the resources to let a dude like him conduct his Doc Brown experiments in his garage all day long and support him but when he says that he has a better way to generate electricity, the community will probably shoulder the load to give him time to work his magic.
 

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I planned for the kid I couldn't raise.I stole every textbook I ever had.
Any mid 60's textbook is gold!
Yeah, I kind of plan for other peoples kids as well. While I have let even thinking of future education totally slip. I have been and still am stocking entertainment supplies in form of craft supplies, coloring books, crayons, markers, rolls of end pieces of newspaper ( whats let on the end of a roll they take off the press when it's to short to use, usually 3'X 30' or so.) Books by the hundreds from Dr.Suess to novels for senior citizens, along with puzzle books, CD's, dozens (more like a couple hundred) DVD's.
 

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QUOTE:

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

-Robert A. Heinlein


The closer we come to that ideal ourselves, the better teachers we will be. It takes a lifetime to get a full education, IMHO, so older, wiser heads have traditionally been revered for their wisdom--a very different thing than being educated. I'm 67 this year and still working on my own education, and wisdom.

That all means I think the older people will be most likely to have the teaching jobs in a PAW society, and not just teaching the little kids. I expect that apprenticeships will be the order of the day, passing on skills which leads to ideas in Lucifer's Hammer.

My wife and I have a lot of skills and education to pass on, but, sadly, no grandkids, so it will be a matter of other people's kids. Our own daughter is now teaching at a homeschool academy, General Science to middle school kids. She has a degree in Chemistry, a background in my furniture making shop, my metal shop, was MSGT in USAF doing airframe repair, and has her own metal shop business. Our kids grew up farming and logging 45 acres with a team of Percherons and raising crops and livestock. They helped us butcher and preserve what we raised.

We collect textbooks of all sorts and get them for a pittance at yard sales, Goodwill, and other second hand outlets. At present we can cover up to 2nd year college in several fields and beyond that in a few. Wife has a degree in Nursing, I have an Engineering degree, son in law has a degree in Forestry and is a certified welder operating his own fabrication shop. I own a machine shop and daughter is an herbalist, which was why she sought the Chemistry program and took enough German to read the latest research on herbal medicine.

Daughter also has an apprenticeship class going in metal work for her homeschoolers. She and her hubby are building passive/active solar heat collectors for sale, and that gets featured in her science classes, too. We all believe in hands-on teaching, so that means the kids make their own solar hot dog cookers and solar cell phone chargers using cells from sidewalk lights. Knowledge just isn't worth much if you cannot put it to work.
 

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QUOTE:

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

-Robert A. Heinlein

The closer we come to that ideal ourselves, the better teachers we will be.
I like Heinlein and I like the way he thought, but in this quote I think his last conclusion goes to far. Yes, we should all strive to broaden our skill base but there's no way no how that we're going to get rid of specialists.

You're a machinist. I'm not. If I needed to have a part machined and I had access to the same tools as you, I can guarantee you that you're going to do the job far better and faster than me. You'll now what metal to use for the tool being made, you'll know how to use the machines, you'll use your skills learned over decades of doing this work and meanwhile I'll be slicing my thumb off, I'll be using copper to make a hammer and so on.

Specialization is how society creates wealth. What you can do with one hour's work would take me 20 hours. What I can do with one hour of labor in my specialization would take you 20 hours. Instead of us wasting 40 hours between us to get two outcomes, we can trade an hour of each of our days and be just as well off and now have a free 19 hours to do other things and create wealth and betterment for society.
 

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RockyMountainCanadian
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I have to agree with both Machinist and Bobbb , Bobbb for the economics of saving time and resources. Machinist for the fact that the wide one's knowledge base the more educated one is, and even though a person may not be an expert in every field it make it al lot easier to understand why some people ask a seemingly high price for something that they make look easy. Specialization without the knowledge of what is involved in the rest of the economic cycle is where the foolish idea that a Smart car is more economical on fuel than a loaded Tractor Trailer hauling goods.
 

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Right now the school teaches our kids but my wife and I are prepared to teach our kids post shtf . Right now the school teaches basics and my wife reinforces them at home but she could teach them the basics as well. I focus on teaching them critical thinking skills because I feel it is missing in schools and it will be a valuable skill in a post shtf world.
 

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Bobbb makes a good point and I agree. I am a good machinist because of my Engineering background, farm experience that provides knowledge of the parts I make or repair, and a lot of general mechanical experience. Being a mechanic does not make you a machinist, but learning mechanics will make a machinist BETTER .

Tirediron puts it all in perspective.

sgtrunningfool has the key to what is wrong in public education, IMHO. Independent critical thinking is discouraged mightily in our school system, to the detriment of the students, while that quality is exactly what is needed worst for our future.

From what I have seen, a high percentage of home school advocates understand all the above and are putting it to work. There are some whose motive is primarily a religious one, but they too want something better than public schools.

The nationwide minimum achievement test has resulted in "teaching for the test", instead of providing an education. SAT scores have sunken deplorably over the past 50 years. Our nation has fallen far down the ranks of education quality. As a result, I believe that if your child attends public schools, as a parent, you must provide what the schools do not teach. That was true 40+ years ago when we taught our own kids after school, and is more so today. TSHTF in this area long ago.
 

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Independent critical thinking is discouraged mightily in our school system, to the detriment of the students, while that quality is exactly what is needed worst for our future.
It's discouraged because it requires the teachers to actually be sharper than the students in order to outthink them, to anticipate where the student's thinking will lead them, to foresee the logical pitfalls which await, to steer them away from the pitfalls or to find ways to extricate the student from faulty paths of logic.

The teachers can do this for the mediocre student but not so much for the average student and certainly not for the above average student and forget about it when it comes to exceptional students.

Simply put, for critical thinking to be nurtured in schools requires that teachers first master critical thinking themselves and that's clearly not happening in public education today.

The nationwide minimum achievement test has resulted in "teaching for the test", instead of providing an education.
True as far as it goes. Keep in mind that the teaching to the test outcomes are actually preferable to what preceded this movement, which was teachers providing what they thought was an education and failing so dismally that NCLB had to be implemented as a remedy.

SAT scores have sunken deplorably over the past 50 years.
Two factors are responsible here - more and more students are taking the SAT, meaning that we're diving deeper into the HS talent pool and so we're diluting the exceptional students in with the average students. Also, the demographics of the nation are changing and this has a HUGE effect on student outcomes.

Our nation has fallen far down the ranks of education quality.
This is almost all attributable to changing demographics - take a look at how we fair if we compare the demographics of America as though it were 1960 to the rest of the world:



We're doing better than Europe, and except for ethnically homogeneous Finland, we're neck in neck with the top scorers when we look at just White Americans.
 

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Good discussion here!!

But, to fet back to the OPs actual question......:rolleyes:

I think education in a POST SHTF world, and over the next couple GENERATIONS(!!), will be an entirely different animal. I thinks lots of stuff will be NOT taught, in favor of the knowledge more appropriate to he times.
This would of course depend greatly on how bad things actually were DURING the SHTF times, what cause the fall, and how many people survived.
 

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Bobbb made some excellent points regarding demographics and a higher % of students taking the tests. That supports what has become obvious in other ways, that there are a lot of kids going off to college that have no business there. Many colleges don't mind at all and accept the tuition money for kids who have to take all remedial classes for at least a year!

The decline of the US in international ranking is less dramatic than the precipitous drop in raw SAT scores, especially from the 1960's through 1980. I could not find numbers previous to 1972, but from then to 1980, SAT scores in the US fell from an average of 530/509 (verbal/math) to 502/492 in just that 8 year period. That is a drop of 5% in the verbal section and near 1% in math. Inexcusable, IMHO. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT

Today, local manufacturers in Indiana cannot find qualified applicants despite a high unemployment rate. This is primarily due to a complete lack of technical training, formal or otherwise. Govt. emphasis on computer technology in schools has left us without any vocational training worthy of the title.

In a PAW world, I would expect all the above to change dramatically and fast. With a dire need for people who can function in a world deprived of today's advantages, I see education reverting to a very practical direction. I think that would best be served by apprenticeships and on the job training supplemented with after hours textbook teaching, as has been the practice in skilled trades for a long time. Long ago, doctors and lawyers learned the same way.

With a lower population, less communication, and less travel, the world will shrink again to the local area. This begets a need for fewer medical specialists and more general practitioners, and more skilled people with broader knowledge. Each person will have to wear more than one hat to make the community function. I hope it does not get as bad as the days when the blacksmith was also the dentist, because he was the only one with pliers to pull teeth. :eek:
 

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I am actually really glad to see this issue being addressed; I brought up a similar point about a year ago, and it was largely dismissed. It makes me happy to see that other people are considering education as an important aspect of being prepared for the future.
 

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This is almost all attributable to changing demographics - take a look at how we fair if we compare the demographics of America as though it were 1960 to the rest of the world:



We're doing better than Europe, and except for ethnically homogeneous Finland, we're neck in neck with the top scorers when we look at just White Americans.
What a ridiculous comparison, that is not like 1960's America at all.
I do believe there were races other than non-Hispanic whites in America in the 1960's:rolleyes:

But comparing Canada with it's ethnic diversity (Native's alone make up more than 4% of our population) to ONLY whites in the U.S?!? And Canada still comes out ahead, scary. I really think our school system is terrible so to think that it is worse south of the border:eek:

Anyways with regards to the topic, having a broad range of experiences and knowledge makes one much better at solving novel problems, which is what we really need today and would even more if tshtf. The number of times I have seen intelligent, highly educated "specialists" be utterly baffled by a problem that was "not in the book":( It is not really their fault in a way, if you haven't been exposed to different fields and ways of doing things and instead are taught the only "right" way to do things you are at a disadvantage.

I HATED school but I love learning. I will never be finished learning till I die.
Whether it's here on this forum where I am learning others opinions and ways of doing things, from a book, listening to those even older than me:D, or dealing with my livestock and plants, there is always something to learn.

People put too much emphasis on the idea that everything must be crammed into kids before they start living their life. I served my time in the system (with the help of some understanding individuals overlooking a ridiculous level of absenteeism at times:eek:) and I certainly learned whatever curriculum was available. The thing is, that info is such a tiny part of what there is to learn, sure you can take a million different courses at colleges and university but why waste the time and money when the information is out there for the taking. As others have mentioned condensed courses offer an example of just how inefficient typical education is.

Homeschooling is often done along similar lines, sure there are basics that must be learned at some point, but learning happens much better when the individual is actually seeking out that particular knowledge, when they have a use for it. And the idea that these things must be learned when you are young is nonsense, it may be easier when you are young, then again you may forget it and have to re-learn it anyways. There are also lots of physical things to do when you are young, and learning as you go is better for your brain:).

The only other thing I would add is that it is not easy to say what knowledge will be needed. Some stuff that we consider basics, like trigonometry might be of little use to an individual (in practical building it is often easier to just lay it out and use a measure) while manipulating equations could be very important (physics equations relating to electricity for example). So I think it is important to preserve as much knowledge as possible in as many forms as we can but not worry so much about cramming all of it into the heads of children.
 

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What a ridiculous comparison, that is not like 1960's America at all.

I do believe there were races other than non-Hispanic whites in America in the 1960's:rolleyes:
Frankly I'm baffled by why you persist with your short methodology critiques for "What a ridiculous comparison" is a joke of a critique. You've done this a few times now and your critiques are pathetic. I suggest that if you want to engage in critique, then put your shoulder into it and do it right.

But comparing Canada with it's ethnic diversity (Native's alone make up more than 4% of our population) to ONLY whites in the U.S?!?
First off, it's not ethnic diversity which was the variable being isolated, it was racial diversity. Secondly, tell us how much racial diversity Canada has which is now in it's third generation in Canada? There certainly were smatterings of Chinese-Canadians and other Asian communities who can trace their ancestors to the Gold Rush days of the 19th Century and the Chinatowns of Victoria and Vancouver, but Canada's racial diversity back in the 40s to 60s was basically inconsequential. You had the Chinese Immigration Act passed in 1923 and there was effectively almost zero Asian immigration until 1967 and even then it didn't kick into high gear until much later. There was also the Komagata Maru Incident: (no this is not the more famous Kobiyashi Maru incident referenced in Star Trek lore)

The Komagata Maru incident involved a Japanese steamship, the Komagata Maru, that sailed from Punjab, India to Hong Kong, Shanghai, China; Yokohama, Japan; and then to Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, in 1914, carrying 376 passengers from Punjab, India. Of them 20 were admitted to Canada, but the 356 other passengers were not allowed to land in Canada, and the ship was forced to return to India.[1] The passengers consisted of 340 Sikhs, 24 Muslims, and 12 Hindus, all British subjects. This was one of several incidents in the history of early 20th century involving exclusion laws in both Canada and the United States designed to keep out immigrants of only Asian origin.

These regulations came at a time when Canada was accepting massive numbers of immigrants (over 400,000 in 1913 alone - a figure that remains unsurpassed to this day), almost all of whom came from Europe.

It is only in recent years that it's possible for 3rd generation minority Canadians to be counted in such a study, presuming the immigrant grandparents arrived in the late 60s and early 70s. Canada wasn't drowning in racial diversity 2 generations ago. And thirdly, Canada is not the center of the universe. The methodology is most useful when applied to Europe for Europe didn't have a small indigenous community, so the rounding error of Natives and Asian-Canadians doesn't influence the findings. The point here is that Canada was overwhelmingly white 2 generations back, on par with the racial characteristics of Europe.

It's amusing when you get on your high horse and then demonstrate that you don't even understand the issue. Your invocation of Canada's ethnic diversity completely misses the target and demonstrates that you don't understand what is being measured in that graph. No one was looking at isolating Canada's Ukrainian and Polish and German immigrants.

And Canada still comes out ahead, scary. I really think our school system is terrible so to think that it is worse south of the border:eek:
As noted above, Canada's Asian population who are neither 1st nor 2nd generation Canadians are included in the Canadian score while Asian-Americans who meet the same criteria are excluded from the American score. Asian students, as a class, generally score a bit higher than white students, so Canada's score is boosted with the inclusion of these students while America's score doesn't get the same benefit.

As to the remainder of your comment I think you raise insightful points and I take no issue with them.
 

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A comparison as ridiculous as that does not need an in depth critique imo so I'm not going to spend all day writing one. With regards to the racial diversity of Canada I already mentioned more than 4% of the population is Native (these are certainly not immigrants by the chart's criteria)
These are included in the Canadian numbers (and the Australian for that matter), even Sami in Scandinavia, but not American ones, that makes it a bad comparison on it's own. There are many other groups that would be included, natives are just the most obvious.
Making the assertion that third generation Canadians of Asian origin might somehow "cancel out" the other ethnic groups is not a valid argument without any evidence.

If a person for some reason wants to compare the score of whites in one country to whites in another for some reason, then do it, but to compare countries using such skewed criteria is misleading.

I certainly do find it interesting that many of your much vaunted examples of homogenous populations like Iceland fall below Canada and other countries that, even with 2 generations of immigrants removed show considerably more diversity.
 

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Anyways with regards to the topic, having a broad range of experiences and knowledge makes one much better at solving novel problems, which is what we really need today and would even more if tshtf. The number of times I have seen intelligent, highly educated "specialists" be utterly baffled by a problem that was "not in the book":( It is not really their fault in a way, if you haven't been exposed to different fields and ways of doing things and instead are taught the only "right" way to do things you are at a disadvantage.

People put too much emphasis on the idea that everything must be crammed into kids before they start living their life. I served my time in the system (with the help of some understanding individuals overlooking a ridiculous level of absenteeism at times:eek:) and I certainly learned whatever curriculum was available. The thing is, that info is such a tiny part of what there is to learn, sure you can take a million different courses at colleges and university but why waste the time and money when the information is out there for the taking. As others have mentioned condensed courses offer an example of just how inefficient typical education is.

Homeschooling is often done along similar lines, sure there are basics that must be learned at some point, but learning happens much better when the individual is actually seeking out that particular knowledge, when they have a use for it. And the idea that these things must be learned when you are young is nonsense, it may be easier when you are young, then again you may forget it and have to re-learn it anyways. There are also lots of physical things to do when you are young, and learning as you go is better for your brain:).

The only other thing I would add is that it is not easy to say what knowledge will be needed. Some stuff that we consider basics, like trigonometry might be of little use to an individual (in practical building it is often easier to just lay it out and use a measure) while manipulating equations could be very important (physics equations relating to electricity for example).
As has been pointed out, specializing is how we expand the knowledge base in specific areas. I am a pediatric home health nurse, I have extensive training & experience in managing kids on ventilators, etc. in the home. I assure you if your kid on a ventilator had a fabulous nurse without my skill set, she would not progress & would likely stay on the vent years longer than necessary, if she lived through it.

When you talk about teaching things when the child has a use for them, this is called unschooling & its founder is John Holt. While it definitely has it's up side, it also has it's downside. There are reasons we teach things to children in the order we teach them. The brain of a child is not a mini version of an adults. It is still developing & is quiete different than ours. We can take advantage of that development though. Classically, this was done using the trivium approach. This approach to teaching children helped to produce people with a depth of knowledge in a variety of areas that you are so fond of. In the early years, the focus is on memorization & learning facts, when the child's brain does so most easily. In middle school the focus switches to analyzing information, support an argument, & learn the "why" behind things. Next it changes to forming arguements, just in time for those adolescent years when arguing is second nature :). Without the facts the student memorized in the early years & the logic learned in the middle years, the student is just an argumentative dumba$$ teen that makes no sense & can be led around using his emotions.

Unschooling & classical education are on different ends of the spectrum in education. One is a "let the child lead the way" theory, the other a "lead the student in a very methodical way" theory. So you see you have contradicted yourself somewhat in your statements. ( Disclaimer, I know these things because I am a "homeschooling specialist" with 15 years of experience homeschooling my kids & doing consulting work for other homeschoolers, so that may mean you dismiss everything I've said. :teehee:) If you want more information, read about John Holt & unschooling & the Well Trained Mind & classical education.
 

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If a person for some reason wants to compare the score of whites in one country to whites in another for some reason, then do it, but to compare countries using such skewed criteria is misleading.
The problem here is the design of the data set or the limitation on the release of the entire data set. For instance, the Educational Testing Service, the people who run the SAT, used to gather student information on race and family income and release that information in their Technical Bulletins, but when researchers discovered that white students from the poorest category of family income were scoring higher on the SAT than black students from the richest category of family income this "hate-fact" caused quite a stir. Since that information became public the ETS no longer releases tables which break down race and family income, though it's highly likely that the data still exists and is now for internal ETS use only.

Well, the same principle applies to the PISA data-sets - one can only analyze the data that is released.

To conduct the study you suggest would require mounting an independent effort and such a study would never pass the Institutional Review Board gauntlet of leftist protectors of the faith. They'd ask "why do you want to isolate scores by race across nations, don't you realize that race is merely a social construction? What are you, a racist?"

Look at what happened to the Duke researchers who discovered that black students disproportionately switch out of difficult majors into fluffy majors. No one disputed the evidence, no one disputed the study design, they just crucified the researchers and many asked why they bothered to even ask the question of whether black students switch to less difficult majors? Others asked how such a study could be approved and published.

I certainly do find it interesting that many of your much vaunted examples of homogenous populations like Iceland fall below Canada and other countries that, even with 2 generations of immigrants removed show considerably more diversity.
Why should you find that surprising? Student outcome is not determined by a one factor explanation. The point is to account for a number of factors so that we can isolate the influence of the factor in question here, which is the curriculum and the school culture of each nation. That is, after all, the point of these international comparisons. The presumption is that Finland is doing something right and so all sorts of ed-folk make the trip over to Finland to study what they're doing and bring it back to their countries to implement.
 

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Something I would recommend is to get those cheater cards that you can buy at places like Bomgarrs and store these in your SHTF files. Basic geometry is a must for doing some projects but this is not a math thing its a craftsman thing that normally has to be learned by doing. Decimal equivalent cards are nice to have around too.
Just what do you mean by "cheater cards"? Flash cards of some kind? Also, I've never heard of Bomgarrs; what kind of store is it?

I would also recommend that every one have a Machinery's Handbook in the file. This is the bible of projects. They have everything you would need to design almost anything. The last one I purchase was maybe 15 years ago but when I run into trouble on a project that book always has a solution. These can be purchased from Amazon for $75 for a hard cover and $15 for the paper back version.
Hmmm...methinks I overpaid for mine. I got mine new at a local Barnes & Noble store for about $103 with member's discount. But then I've got the 29th edition, too.:hmmm:
 
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