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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
I remember it differently, granted this was a few years ago and my memory fails me at times...

Most of my HS classes were logical, 1+1=2, 1+1= anything else is incorrect. The only "thinking" classes were one religion class (where I was scolded a lot for raising too many questions) and one literature class where we were encouraged to be creative. My first run through "college" was the same. My second run through college, in the 1990's was different. I took mostly engineering courses where the answer might not be so cut and dry. 1=1 might equal 4... for a sufficiently large enough value of one! (math joke, sorry.) In doing proofs for calculus, everyone in the class could have a different equation for an answer, and we all would be correct. It was all theoretical. Several of us took our answers to a question one time and spent an afternoon trying to get them to match, couldn't do it. Anyone, but the original person with that answer, could not even get the answer back to the original equation! We agreed that the person with the answer did get it correct, but could not get any other, from the answer, back to match it. It was about that time I switched to accounting. Two lists of numbers, they either match or you have a difference, pretty cut and dry. You can put them in any column you like, but you start with 100, you end up with 100, just in different columns. This is where statistics became fun, it could be a good 100 or a bad 100, it only mattered which column you put it in.

But back OT. All made me think, use my brain. Problem: move an object from point "A": to point "B". Well, first I know what the object is. Then how far from A to B, what is available to help move it......... It sounds like today there would be a touchy feely element added. Problem: move an object from point "A": to point "B", but Billy is sensitive and really wants it to stay here, Compromise with Billy and ask if it is alright if you move the object first.
Yeah, I think you have pretty much nailed it. One of the biggest problems I have with the public school system now is the whole Common Core thing. I can't get over the fact that in math class for 3rd and 4th graders, there is now a swing from focusing on getting the math correct to using a particular "strategy" or "method" to solve a problem. I was actually told by a teacher that for some sections, whether my son got the answer correct was not the goal of the math problem. I thought that was kind of the point of the math.... get it correct (2+2=4) or get it incorrect (2+2=22).

It is also mind-numbing how they can make a three digit addition problem (150+150=?) and some how make it require 9 steps to solve including a drawing and an interpretation of the drawing.

I have a degree in optical physics and a co-major in philosophy, and that's a little abstract even for me.

""The education system in our nation was a target… no need to dredge up 100 years of history (research it on your own, many books detail it).""

Oh, I 100% agree about the Dept. of Education being a target. The progressives found out early on what kind of havoc they can sow by tweaking with the juvenile demographic of a population. I knew a guy in my home town that was a member of the Hitler youth in Nazi Germany growing up. It wasn't because he was ideologically aligned with them.... It was jut what you did back then....

Frightening the things we will accept as "cultural norms" when pre-conditioned to do so.

Heck, even Karl Marx saw the absolute opportunity for social engineering that education systems afford and he spoke about the fact in his Manifesto. Also, Elton Trueblood wrote about the danger of Americans allowing the Education system (both public and university) slip out of their control in his AWESOME book Declaration of Freedom.

Okay... enough rambling for tonight....

:soapbox2:
 

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Woodchuck
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It is also mind-numbing how they can make a three digit addition problem (150+150=?) and some how make it require 9 steps to solve including a drawing and an interpretation of the drawing.
I saw a show on TV about that. It wasn't a huge long thing, maybe 10 minutes or so as I recall.

If you are adding say two 3 digit numbers, you break each one down into components first. They taught the children to take each number and break them into cubes or towers or something. Then they would take each component, count the blocks and if needed, move one to another tower. At the end they had a visual representation of the number that was the answer.

The rational was that they teach children to visualize each number as different components so they can grasp the concept of numbers. It avoided having them remember all the number tables, like 1+1=2, 1+2=3... After they have this concept down then they go back and teach them how to add like most of us did.

It seemed like really a waste of time because eventually these children WILL just have to know that 7+4=11, put a one down and carry a one to the ten's column anyway!

The professional being interviewed said it helped all students get a better grasp of number theory so they could move on.

For an example, they had a young child and the newsperson add some numbers on a blackboard. The reporter did it the old math way, stack them and add each column, putting a total at the bottom and carrying numbers over as needed. The child broke each number into visual cubes then put the cubes together, moving any as needed. Then she counted the towers/cubes of each and wrote the answer, which she did get correct but it took her a long time.

The child did not like the method. She said it was easy to get distracted because there was so much going on. And if she did not put the correct amount of cubes/towers where they belonged she would have to start over again. But she would never know unless she went back and recounted everything as a check. She liked the old method where she could see each number, it made more sense to her.

What I took away is they made it harder to start with, so that the old method would seem really easy. I do not know many young children anymore, so maybe many do really need to have a visual representation of something before they grasp the concept? We used to too! A is for Apple, B is for Ball... Then there was Sesame Street! Maybe they researched and found that method really worked better... "Brought to you by the number FOUR!" Four ducks... "Quack, Quack, Quack, Quack." Four. Four Ducks.

I do remember it being a real pain to learn the times tables back then!!! But, today, from 1x1 to 10x10 is right there if needed, don't even have to think about it. All I have to do is remember having a nun stand by me and ask, "Mr. Woodchuck. What is 7 x 9?" And getting slapped upside the head if I hesitated or got it wrong!!! "SOMEONE didn't do their homework I see..." And we all knew who was staying after class and filling the chalk boards with the 7 times table.. over and over and over.... THEN.. Having to go home and explain to Mom & Dad why Sister Jean had me stay late.... Hey, I didn't need any more 'visualization' than that to just buckle down and LEARN it. LOL!!!
 

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If you are adding say two 3 digit numbers, you break each one down into components first. They taught the children to take each number and break them into cubes or towers or something. Then they would take each component, count the blocks and if needed, move one to another tower. At the end they had a visual representation of the number that was the answer.

The rational was that they teach children to visualize each number as different components so they can grasp the concept of numbers. It avoided having them remember all the number tables, like 1+1=2, 1+2=3... After they have this concept down then they go back and teach them how to add like most of us did.

The professional being interviewed said it helped all students get a better grasp of number theory so they could move on.
1. A child should have a thorough understanding of what numbers represent LONG before anyone attempts to teach them "borrowing & carrying".

2. There are MANY tricks & techniques to help kids with memorizing their multiplication facts. Utilizing them will make it as quick & painless as possible & add a little fun & interest to it. For example, when trying to memorize multiples of 9, the numbers in the answer add up to 9 (9x7=63 & 6+3=9) and the first number in the answer is 1 less than the number you're multiplying by 9 (9x7=63 7-1=6). So to find the answer to 9x7, you could do 7-1=6 & 6+?=9 & come up with 63. Beats whipping out the fingers & toes! ;). Bonus points if the kid can tell you why it works!
 

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Trust me religion has done a lot more bad for the world than atheism ever has. I'm not saying all religion I just said harmful and hurtful religion
PrepDerp, trust ME when I tell you atheists have done more harm and killed more than religion--Hitler with his millions, Moa with his 10s of millions are just 2 examples. Yes, Islam is making inroads to new thresholds of hurt to millions more now, but Islam is the spawn of Satan.

Jesus is the One that can give you a new life, if only you would ask Him into your heart.
 

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BillM
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Confusion

1. A child should have a thorough understanding of what numbers represent LONG before anyone attempts to teach them "borrowing & carrying".

2. There are MANY tricks & techniques to help kids with memorizing their multiplication facts. Utilizing them will make it as quick & painless as possible & add a little fun & interest to it. For example, when trying to memorize multiples of 9, the numbers in the answer add up to 9 (9x7=63 & 6+3=9) and the first number in the answer is 1 less than the number you're multiplying by 9 (9x7=63 7-1=6). So to find the answer to 9x7, you could do 7-1=6 & 6+?=9 & come up with 63. Beats whipping out the fingers & toes! ;). Bonus points if the kid can tell you why it works!
That is very confusing. They just need to memorize the multiplication tables. Functional mathematics, are necessary to survival.
 

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PrepDerp, trust ME when I tell you atheists have done more harm and killed more than religion--Hitler with his millions, Moa with his 10s of millions are just 2 examples. Yes, Islam is making inroads to new thresholds of hurt to millions more now, but Islam is the spawn of Satan.

Jesus is the One that can give you a new life, if only you would ask Him into your heart.
Hahaha! Why does it matter what someone believed or didn't believe? Those people are evil but so are the kkk, al queda, Isis, black Muslims (a hate group) and it's really weird to believe you can be redeemed by someone else's suffering. If I shot someone and I was going to jail, but some random guy volunteered to take a bullet in place of me going to prison that would be stupid! We don't even know if Jesus is real or not!
 

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There is a place in Hell for me...the THRONE.
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Hahaha! Why does it matter what someone believed or didn't believe? Those people are evil but so are the kkk, al queda, Isis, black Muslims (a hate group) and it's really weird to believe you can be redeemed by someone else's suffering. If I shot someone and I was going to jail, but some random guy volunteered to take a bullet in place of me going to prison that would be stupid! We don't even know if Jesus is real or not!
You need to brush up on your history and your Bible. The Great Deluged happened! So why not other events/facts in the Bible being true?!

Plus the true child of God knows in their heart Jesus is their true savior.
 

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You need to brush up on your history and your Bible. The Great Deluged happened! So why not other events/facts in the Bible being true?!

Plus the true child of God knows in their heart Jesus is their true savior.
Hahaha! You're less convincing than a chick tract! XDDD
 

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That is very confusing. They just need to memorize the multiplication tables. Functional mathematics, are necessary to survival.
Math, my pet peeve with dumbed down kids today. I try to avoid a pocket full of ones and to much change. Example, at a store I would pay for, say a, $7.00+ purchase with a $10 bill, 2, $1 bills and say 50 cents. My change would be a $5 bill and a couple of coins.

Kids behind the register always give me a blank uncomprehending look when I do this. Sometimes they might even try to take the $10 for payment and slide the ones and change back before opening the register… They don't get it! They are incapable of doing simple math in their head.

One memorable occasion, I made a small purchase at the local grocery. It was $12… something… I gave the kid a $20 and 3 ones. He had a "deer in the headlights" meltdown look on his face.

He entered $23 in the register, the draw opened. He stood there, looks at me, looks at the register… several times. I finally had to tell him to give me a $10, a dime, a nickel and 2 pennies. He still had a shocked look but counted out the amount the register told him.

Then his look was even more astonished! He said, "How did you know that? OMG, YOU'RE PHYSIC! He said it loud! People several registers over stopped and looked at me! LOL

I said "No, its simple math I learned in the 4th grade!" He said "We didn't learn that". I asked "What did they teach you?" He said "How to live life!"

The mangers office was directly behind me, I pointed at it with my thumb. I asked "If you can't do simple math how do you know the guy in that office is paying you what you're owed?"

He looked at me like I was dumb and said "It says on the check what I'm supposed to get!" At this point I walked out shaking my head. At 18 this kid was already damaged beyond repair!

A week later I went to the same store, slow day. That same kid was talking to another kid at one of the registers… When he saw me I actually heard him say to the other kid… "That's him, that's him, the physic guy I was telling you about!"

This is what our tax dollars pay for!:gaah:
 

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Cowboy
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OK.

Sister-in-law graduated from college and became a grade school Teacher. If you would know her you would :eek:

At a family get-together her and her sister was using a pencil and paper trying to calculate what $1.97 x 3 equaled. They keep coming up with different answers. I told them $5.91

"No it isn't! But that is one of the answers we got?! You have a calculator!"

"No I don't. I figured in my head. Add 3 cents to the $1.97 to equal $2. $2 x 3 = $6. You added a extra 3 cents 3 times so 3 cents x 3 = 9 cents. Subtract the 9 cents from the $6 and you get $5.91" Their eyes glassed over at the "Add 3 cents" and the rest of my explanation got better comprehension from the door post.


Guess I'm a psychic purchaser too.

State sales tax was 5%. Purchase is $4.97

Move the decimal point to the left one place and you have $.497 or 10% of the $4.97

Round off the $.497 and you have $.50

Divide the $.50 by two (to get 5%) and you have 25 cents. Add 25 cents to the $4.87 for a total of $5.12

I'll have the $5.12 ready to hand to the Cashier before she/he has an answer from the cashier register.

Dad taught me these "tricks" and he taught me how to reason and to think too!
 

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There is a place in Hell for me...the THRONE.
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Hahaha! You're less convincing than a chick tract! XDDD
I don't need to convince you. Only God can change your heart. My job is to remind you of His vigilant love and enduring forgiveness.

You see no amount of praying, crying, begging, pleading, or bargaining can force you to accept that God loves you. You have to want Him in your life.
 

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Guess I'm a psychic purchaser too.
I get a chuckle out of the confusion on cashier's faces when I hand them $21 for a $5.xx bill. I hate having a bunch of $1's in my wallet.

My favorite is when I hand them the bills, they count it, get a slightly confused look, type it in the register, get an 'ah-ha' look, then tell me how much change I still owe. All while I'm counting out coins in my hand in front of them.
 

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OK.

Dad taught me these "tricks" and he taught me how to reason and to think too!
To me these aren't really tricks, this is how simple math is done! I know there are many folks who must rely on the failed public education system. Still, I'd urge such folks to go on ebay etc and buy a few math books from the 1960's. Teach your kids at home, 1/2 hour, couple or 3 times a week.

The kid who thought I was physic… he was just dumb!:D

Seriously though, the sheer number of cashiers who get confused tells me the system has thoroughly failed our children. It's shameful! :mad:
 

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There is a place in Hell for me...the THRONE.
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I get a chuckle out of the confusion on cashier's faces when I hand them $21 for a $5.xx bill. I hate having a bunch of $1's in my wallet.

My favorite is when I hand them the bills, they count it, get a slightly confused look, type it in the register, get an 'ah-ha' look, then tell me how much change I still owe. All while I'm counting out coins in my hand in front of them.
I have gotten in the habit of telling a cashier I want X bills back in change when I hand them the "odd" bills in payment. That way they aren't wasting time acting confused and stupid.

:rolleyes:
 

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I don't need to convince you. Only God can change your heart. My job is to remind you of His vigilant love and enduring forgiveness.

You see no amount of praying, crying, begging, pleading, or bargaining can force you to accept that God loves you. You have to want Him in your life.
"Vigilant love" heh. Heh. Heh. Aren't you the one who bashes and complains about me all the time? Who sees me as less than them because I don't require a BOOK from multiple 1,000's of years ago to tell me how to live? I don't wanna be near ANY god or deity who thinks it's a good idea to commit suicide to fix the worlds problems, (none of which were fixed) I just don't wanna hear it.
 

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There is a place in Hell for me...the THRONE.
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"Vigilant love" heh. Heh. Heh. Aren't you the one who bashes and complains about me all the time? Who sees me as less than them because I don't require a BOOK from multiple 1,000's of years ago to tell me how to live? I don't wanna be near ANY god or deity who thinks it's a good idea to commit suicide to fix the worlds problems, (none of which were fixed) I just don't wanna hear it.
Then why did you start a RELIGIOUS thread?! Even if it was about relationships it still is about religion and we have a right to share our thoughts as much as you have the right not to believe the same as us.

Now stop stirring sh*t. Go watch your after school cartoons and leave the conversation to the adults.

Mods, Now would be the time to close this thread. He is just stirring the pot and calling names. No amount of polite conversation will get anything through his fat head.
 

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Discussion Starter · #60 ·
I have to say, I am a bit taken aback by the direction this thread has taken. I am the original poster, and have chosen to kind of sit back and observe for the most part, up until this point. I've tried to limit my comments to dealing mainly with my original topic, which had to do with the fact that my son's sixth grade class was being taught religious doctrine in a public school.

Which religion was, indeed, of particular concern, but I would have had this reaction if the teachers were trying to teach Christianity as well. In fact, my reaction probably would have been stronger... After all, they are no making it against "rules and regulations" for a child o bring a Bible to school at all. If they then tried to turn around and teach Christianity, would flip out. Thankfully, they're not doing that....yet.

My problem was more with the fact that the kids were being directed to a website that clearly had an agenda to teach, promote, and indeed proselytize Islamic faith and doctrine. That's the intent the designers admit to on their page. Regardless of what religion it is, if our kids are being directed to a conversion-oriented site for ANY religion by a public school teacher, that is a problem.

If the school system is, on the one hand, telling people of faith from outside that system that they cannot practice their faith on school property, or at school events (i.e. praying), then the school system has NO right, authority, or privilege to teach our kids about religion, in my opinion, other than if they stick strictly to history and leave faith and doctrine out of it.

In fact, until very recently, most states went so far as to spell out exactly that kind of distinction between historical and cultural impact of religion(s) vs. faith and doctrine of that religion in their stated goals for classes and lesson plans that covered religious topics. With the newer standards, though, the language is different and more convoluted. Lines between faith, doctrine, and history are blurred, and in some cases ignored altogether.

The danger of teaching the validity of all religions in a classroom setting is that the only way you can logically teach that all religions are equally valid is if you teach that they are all equally untrue. That is, essentially, the faith doctrine of atheism: All religions are factually untrue, and therefore one should not have faith in any of them.

If our teachers or the system itself is promoting that worldview, then it is teaching faith-doctrine, and that is a problem. Just as it is a problem if they are teaching the faith doctrine of Islam, Catholicism, protestant Christianity, Orthodox Christianity, Baha'ism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Shinto, Daoism, etc. etc. etc.

I would think most people could come to some common ground on that principle, if no other.

As I said before, I didn't have a problem when they stuck to history and culture... It was the doctrine I had an issue with, doubly so because it was Islamic, true, but still a problem in and of itself.

Just out of curiosity, how many people actually went to the website I posted in the original post? Did any of you actually take a look at what our kids were being taught? It is flat out appalling. I don't think even a scholar of the Koran (Qur'an) would really be comfortable with the "image" of Islam that was being taught by that website.... much less people not of the faith.
 
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