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Man Arrested for defending family with AK47 :gaah: Gang members win again.

A man in New York was arrested for defending his family from a group of gang members who came on to his property. George Grier told reporters that he used his rifle to fire warning shots into his yard because his home was under invasion from over 20 gang members.

“I went around and went into the house, ran upstairs and told my wife to call the police. I get the gun and I go outside and I come into the doorway and now, by this time, they are in the driveway, back here near the house. I tell them, you know, ‘Can you please leave?’ Grier said.

Grier said the five came into his yard shouting threats; the shouts attracted a larger group of over 20 gang members to the front of his house. The gang shouted threats at Grier and threatened to kill his family and his babies.

Grier says when 20 men started to rush his house he fired 4 warning shoots into the grass. Grier says he thought shooting into his yard would scare the gang off and get the police into the area. To his shock not only did the police come, but they arrested Grier with felony reckless endangerment.

Grier has no criminal record, and was legally allowed to have the gun.

For some reason I can no longer post links? Someone want to help me out ... (please :D)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for posting the link. :D

I agree it is a shocking story ... and it ticks me to no end that the 'bad guys' win while the man defending his family goes to jail.:mad:
 

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performing monkey
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they REALLY need 'castle laws' in EVERY state :rant:
 

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If that man was a real ObaMaoite-American, he would have done the right thing and allowed the gang to kill him, gang rape and kill his wife and kidnap his kids to sell into the sex slave trade, 'cause God knows guns in the hands of homeowners are dangerous!
 

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I sold my soul to The_Blob. He had candy...
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Just great. So now the gang members know he has NO weapon and while he is in jail, NO ONE to defend his wife and kids.
 

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If that man was a real ObaMaoite-American, he would have done the right thing and allowed the gang to kill him, gang rape and kill his wife and kidnap his kids to sell into the sex slave trade, 'cause God knows guns in the hands of homeowners are dangerous!
WOW! Is that backwards!

PRESIDENT Obama has been a stanch supporter of the 'Castle Laws'!

Thanks to PRESIDENT Obama, we now carry in US Parks, Amtrack Trains, ect.
Even Ill., his home state, had to yield it's draconian firearms laws to Amtrack and US parks since they are 'Federal' land, not state land.

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Since you are quoting ONE side of the story...
The guy that got arrested,
Do you KNOW there were 'Armed Gang Members' or not?
Was it just some bone head firing rounds at neighborhood kids in his yard?

I will defer to police on this one, they were on the scene, and I wasn't...
If he had the 'Right', and he seriously thought his life, or the lives of his family was in danger, then a jury will surely see it when it comes to trial...

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I would say there were TWO mistakes made right away (from his own statements)...
And since I teach this class locally, I can write with some authority on the subject....

1. NEVER, EVER display a fire arm before you pull the trigger.
The KNOWN presents of firearms ALWAYS ESCALATES any confrontational situation.

If you are FORCED TO FIRE, fire from concealment if possible,
Shoot through a coat pocket, pocket book, from under a news paper or whatever.
NOT seeing a firearm when it goes off just might keep you from getting shot if the aggressor has a firearm..
The shock of the report and impact of the round (if you hit anything with the adrenalin pumping) will hopefully disorient the aggressor long enough for you to get more rounds off or get away...
Even if you hit a vital organ, like the heart, there will still be 3-5 seconds of ability for that aggressor to pull the trigger, and you are hoping for the confusion to hold his fire until his blood pressure drops and he looses control...

Only John Wayne could hold that gun out and blast away, and he's dead.
Don't try to be a hero or intimidate, take EVERY advantage you can get, and keeping your firearm CONCEALED is one VERY LARGE advantage...

I teach to conceal until the last possible second, then draw to fire,
Not draw to intimidate.
Attempts to intimidate ALWAYS jacks up the confrontational level and switch from a 'Victim' to a very large potential threat... That means the aggressor will probably shoot if you do, and might shoot you out of fear response.

....................

2. NEVER, EVER fire 'Warning Shots'.
Warning shots are nothing but an attempt to further escalate the situation.
If you have to draw and fire, then fire at the most threatening person in the group.

Showing the firearm FIRST, in this case, means he escalated the situation rapidly,
"Warning Shots" means you STARTED the gun fight!

After firing the 'Warning Shots' FIRST, Legally, he STARTED a gun fight if anyone would have cared to take shots at him, HE was at fault... And THEY were simply defending themselves against an 'Assault Rifle' wheeling attacker...

.....................

3. NEVER, EVER draw or fire before you KNOW the situation has progressed past the point of defusing it.
The 'Guy' should have waited until the 'Gang Members' actually tried to enter the residence.
No questions would have been asked at that point.

.....................

4. If you discharge a weapon,
NEVER, EVER talk to first responders!


You will be BUSTING A GUT to tell your side of the story, but KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!

First responders are NOT qualified to make the decisions, assess the situation or accurately investigate a shooting!

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5. COMPLY with the officers,
SHOW NO RESISTANCE OR HESITATION TO COMPLY!


If possible, clear the firearm before they arrive,
If you are still in a gunfight when they arrive, STOP SHOOTING so you don't become a target!

Tell the officer that responds you...
A. Understand this is a SERIOUS SITUATION.
B. You don't want to be disrespectful,
BUT...
C. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO SAY UNTIL YOU CONSULT AN ATTORNEY AND HAVE ONE PRESENT DURING ANY QUESTIONING.


REPEAT 'C.' when they continue to ask you 'What Happened?'
Because they WILL try to pry a statement out of you, and an 'Excited Utterance' is admissible in court, no matter what you ACTUALLY SAID, it will be the word of the officers on what they THINK they heard that will carry weight in court...

.......................

6. YOU NEVER INTENDED TO KILL OR WOUND ANYONE!
(Make sure you lawyer is up to speed on this!)

This is a LEGAL fine line you need to be aware of!

You fired to STOP THE ATTACK, not to kill or wound anyone!
Intentional killing or wounding makes you CRIMINALLY AND CIVILLY LIABLE!

Your Intention was to STOP THE ATTACK, NOTHING MORE.
The death was a result of stopping the attack, not an intentional act!

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Addendum,
HAVE AN ATTORNEY ON SPEED DIAL!
Folks that take our class have an attorny, a former Judge and Prosecutor that backs up the firearms program locally...

DO NOT use the 'Family Attorney' or 'Phone Book Pick'...
If you are actually PREPARED to use deadly force,
Then you have prepared for this eventuality!
Pick a CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER, preferably one that has been a Judge or Prosecutor and has EXPERIENCE with this sort of thing!

Taxes, Wills & Bankruptcy DO NOT make a criminal defense lawyer!

EXPECT TO BE CHARGED WITH HOMICIDE OR ATTEMPTED HOMICIDE IF NO ONE DIES!

Cops are LAZY, and they don't want people shooting all over the place, so EXPECT to be charged and jailed.
When cooler heads prevail, the charges might be dropped in pretrial or corners inquest.

IF YOU KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, THEY HAVE TO INVESTIGATE AND ACTUALLY FIND FACTS OUT!
If you shoot off your mouth, you are asking for them to screw you in terms of an investigation!

FORCE the detectives, crime scene guys to do their jobs trying to figure out what happened.
They will collect a bunch of stuff that will HELP you in the long run,
Instead of forming an instant opinion as to what happened based on what you spouted off while jacked up on adrenalin.

Just for the record,
COPS ARE NOT REQUIRED to give a statement about a shooting for 48 hours!
The idea is they have to calm down before they can give a coherent statement.
(It's actually so they have time to work the story... So 'Irregularities' don't come up in court)

TAKE THAT ADVICE! TALK TO AN ATTORNEY, CALM DOWN, GET YOUR SH!T TOGETHER BEFORE YOU MAKE A STATEMENT!

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*IF*...
This goober would have taken the training to handle the use of deadly force, he would have known these things, and it would have probably been a 'Non-Event',
Instead, he saw 'hoods' and couldn't wait to get is 'GAT' and show them how tough he was...
Now he's in jail.

Follow the simple rules, and that doesn't happen, or you walk shortly

If you don't have the IQ Points to understand these basic steps,
Then you are NOT prepared for something as serious as a shooting!

------------------------------------
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

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I invented the internet. :rofl:
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WOW! Is that backwards!

PRESIDENT Obama has been a stanch supporter of the 'Castle Laws'!

Thanks to PRESIDENT Obama, we now carry in US Parks, Amtrack Trains, ect.
Even Ill., his home state, had to yield it's draconian firearms laws to Amtrack and US parks since they are 'Federal' land, not state land...
Owe-bama didn't initiate the laws allowing a person to legally carry a firearm in national parks. He didn't start the ball rolling but, to his credit, he didn't stop it either. I believe it was more for political expediency than any desire to uphold the Second Amendment.

Regarding Amtrak? You cannot "carry" on Amtrack trains. They were compelled to allow weapons in checked baggage but they received an extension until December 2010 (I'm not completely sure of the date) to allow time to build "secure" storage areas for the checked weapons.

The "parks" proviso is that the parks have to comply with the state laws in which they are located. If the state allows open carry so must the park, etc.

As for Owe-bama being a "staunch supporter of the Castle Laws"? I'd need more proof before I'd believe that. Has he ever sponsored any laws favorable to gun owners/rights? Has he ever voted on the side of gun ownership/rights? Merely bowing to political expediency does not make him pro-gun.
 

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Family Friendly DJ
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As for Owe-bama being a "staunch supporter of the Castle Laws"? I'd need more proof before I'd believe that. Has he ever sponsored any laws favorable to gun owners/rights? Has he ever voted on the side of gun ownership/rights? Merely bowing to political expediency does not make him pro-gun.
I just spent 30 minutes trying to find some tiny shred of evidence Obama supports the Castle Doctrine. Nothing. I was, however, able to find evidence of him speaking in a demeaning manner of people who "cling to religion or guns". I also found evidence that he supported Chicago's maligned handgun ban.

I also find interesting he believes that we should "respect the 2nd amendment" but local gun bans are okay. Huh. That doesn't make any sense. So the 2nd amendment only applies in places where the local government "allows" it to? How does that "respect" it?

When the question was put directly to him... he dodged the question utterly:

"Q: You said recently, "I have no intention of taking away folks' guns." But you support the D.C. handgun ban, and you've said that it's constitutional. How do you reconcile those two positions?

A: Because I think we have two conflicting traditions in this country. I think it's important for us to recognize that we've got a tradition of handgun ownership and gun ownership generally. And a lot of law-abiding citizens use it for hunting, for sportsmanship, and for protecting their families. We also have a violence on the streets that is the result of illegal handgun usage. And so I think there is nothing wrong with a community saying we are going to take those illegal handguns off the streets. And cracking down on the various loopholes that exist in terms of background checks for children, the mentally ill. We can have reasonable, thoughtful gun control measure that I think respect the Second Amendment and people's traditions. "

I think it's good on Obama for staying out of the way, and I'm glad he answered that by not addressing the question. But you have to be REALLY drunk on Obama-flavored wine to think for an instant this guy favors private ownership. He's just staying out of the way... he's voting "present" on the issue. Like he always has, and always will.
 

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Family Friendly DJ
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Also, JH? It ain't just here but just about everywhere people are discussing this: It's clear you've put a lot of thought into what you "would" do. Probably too much. It's silly fantasy-world BS to think a hidden weapon is going to scare gangbangers off, holding until the very last instant where you are "forced" to unleash your powerful manly violent weapon and amazing quickdraw capability which will cause all the villains to be hit once and blink and fade away like a frickin' video game.

Plus, it's creepy. It's violence masturbation at it's worst. "Fire from under a newspaper"? Eek. What kinda comic book world do you live in? You're spending your time building up for a fantasy situation where everything has been exhausted and your terrifying powers MUST be unleashed in order to save the day! If you are in a situation like this, adrenaline will be flowing, and you will, like most people who do not live in violence on a regular basis, die "waiting for your moment". How can you seriously advocate shooting someone to death from a hidden position yet spit on a guy for warning shots on his own property? It's not frickin' spy games and assassinations, it's not a video game. And worse? You'd better hope you never ever get into a situation that even is clearcut self defense and a DA finds that post of yours, because it will be used to amply demonstrate that you've been preparing to "unleash your inner beast" murder someone and get away with it for your whole life.

If you've got a gun drawn under a newspaper or in your pocket and pointing at someone's belly, you will NEVER prove to a jury you were in fear for your life. All you will prove to them (and this WILL be "proven" unless you have an amazing lawyer) is that you were chomping at the bit for a reason to murder someone.

There's this guy you may have heard of, Massad Ayoob? You should probably read some of his writings on the subject. If you think you have, read them again because you don't get it. He does give a whole lotta "do this if the 'bad guy' does that". None of it would ever include comic book ridiculousness like "fire through a coat pocket". He also does tell you that everything you have EVER said will be used against you. Thus, if you ever shoot someone "through a coat pocket" you're likely going down for murder 1. If you think the DA won't go through your personal life and link your posts to you, you'll be mighty shocked when it happens anyway.

Now.. back onto the topic of "warning shots". Yeah... people defending their own territory who would rather not kill tend to use them. They always have. They always will. I wouldn't, because I think the presence of the weapon itself is enough of a deterrent. I don't think he really was either. I think he was pressing a "summon police faster" button. But, no amount of laws will ever change the natural desire to escalate a threat display in hopes that the other animal will go away. It really makes me a little sick whenever I hear "Do not draw a gun unless you are going to use it". No. Do not draw a gun unless you are able to deal with the consequences of drawing it, which may include usage. If, terrified, you draw a gun and someone retreats, bravo! You have just committed an act of desperate self-defense! If you draw a gun, terrified, and they continue to be aggressive or say "You don't have the guts to use that" and you kill them.. bravo! You'd dang well better have ACTUALLY been terrified, though.

If someone already has a gun pointed at you and you "secretly" draw your weapon and wait for an opening to kill them? You're participating in a gun-fight! YOU are the one who believes he's John Wayne! That is exactly how the jury will treat you... and hey have your writings to back it up.

Threat display. If your cousin is surrounded by gang members gangers who have expressed a desire to hurt him, and they CALL FOR BACKUP, it's not suburban make-believe funtimes with Sid and Marty Krofft anymore. The situation already has escalated to a level where superior threat display is a last chance for someone's animal brain to hope violence will not occur. You're not thinking of the law at this point, and nobody sane would be. You see a member of your family in threat of his life and want that threat to stop.

People in the driveway near his house. Who began calling for backup when he appeared. Survival in those sorts of neighborhoods is not anything like what folks seem to think it is. I hear a whole lotta people in other places stating "Oh just close the door call the cops and the first guy through the door blow his head off!" You know what? That doesn't help his cousin very much, now does it? You think they were going to politely wait until his wife got finished calling the police? He was in fear of a situation escalating and so presented a superior threat display to stop it.

The people who actually LIVE in those cities? They know what weapons are for, just like the rural man does.

All we "know" for sure is there were people on his property threatening his cousin and he got a weapon to ward them off and do you know what? That's what weapons are for. For having. Terry Pratchett said it best, and it also explains the difference between someone who owns an obnoxiously visible wooden stock rifle vs the people who carry around hidden knives and creepy ninja death weapons and talk about things like SHOOTING THEM THROUGH A COAT.

-----
"This is not weapon. This is for killing people," Vimes said. "Err …most weapons are," said Inigo. "No they're not. They're so you don't have to kill people. They're for … for having. For being seen. For warning. This isn't one of those. It's for hiding away until you bring it out and kill people in the dark.""
-----

Given that he probably shoulda reached for a deer rifle or something rather than what people think is an "assault weapon" but hey.. "deer rifles" are a lot more expensive than things which fire russian ammo everywhere I've been so maybe he couldn't afford something more "normal".

And here's the thing: was this man a former gang member himself? If he is, then he knows absolutely he did what you do to end a situation. You fire a gun, and hope everyone scatters before the police get there. Yes, despite what rap music would have you believe, people use the police against each other all the time. He used this knowledge as best as he could to defend his family.... he did not want to kill anyone, but he sure heck did want the police there fast.

It's fun to have been born in comparative luxury and make overarching "plans" (which you won't be executing when the time comes.. in fact you'll probably die.. most people do. If you make it out of situations like that frankly? It's more luck than training, more mindset than planning. Ask my wife sometime about all the scars on my body that it was impossible to "plan" for), then stand in judgment of folks who would have to wait 30 minutes for the cops to come up later and clean up the bodies, isn't it?

I can't help but pity the guy either way. Did he exacerbate the situation? Possibly. We don't know all the factors here. Did he exacerbate it merely by appearing with a weapon showing his willingness to defend his family with lethal force? I'd honestly go with no. This isn't a fight on the street. This isn't two people who got into a fight and then one drew a weapon, thus escalating the fight. This was one person against three people. Three people who have no business on his driveway. There is no "good" reason three people will ever come halfway up your driveway and surround your cousin while blocking your car. Was he supposed to stand there and watch his family member get stabbed? Maybe go out there and "negotiate"? when someone is outnumbered three to one on private property the time for de-escalation maybe has passed. I don't know. I WASN'T THERE. But I sure won't try to write a manual on what to do if this or that happens.

Can I say for sure I'd have done the same thing in his place? Absolutely not. It's ridiculous to say "Oh when this happens I'd do this, but if this then that and the other thing and" blah blah whatever. No. When the time comes, you do what you do and hope for the best.

I can't believe these words are being typed by my fingers but... you know what? If the guy was an elderly white man who did the same thing, we'd be hearing about the brave man who defended his family and his quick thinking to increase police response time. There'd also be the requisite (and sometimes deserved) insults about said time.

I seem to recall an elderly white man in Texas flatout KILL people on less provocation, and he's sure not in jail... because the laws in his state are a bit more in line with what really happens rather than the fantasy version of violence some courts ascribe to.

One man fired shots at the ground to try to summon police quicker. Another guy shot some Hispanics for stealing not his OWN, but his neighbor's property. Let's have some sense of perspective here. This guy fired 7.62x39mm into the grass. Has anyone ever heard of that round deflecting off grass and killing a toddler 2 miles away?

If one is okay then so is the other. I say bravo, perhaps this will get the laws of New York fixed.. it's ridiculous to put someone down for brandishing on their own property and using the same warning shots farmers have to scare people off their property for hundreds of years. Unless the police are right there... you just might have to fire a few warning shots to scare people off your land or get attention paid to your situation quicker.

But if you do fire those warning shots you'd better be willing to deal with what happens afterwards.... whatever that may be. I will give that much of a "how to".
 

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Family Friendly DJ
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If you don't have the IQ Points to understand these basic steps,
Then you are NOT prepared for something as serious as a shooting!

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....I see I'm wasting my time with you trying to expand your mind or show other viewpoints, though. You're one of those folks who has pre-decided they are always right and everyone other than themselves is some level of idiot. that also explains why you believe Obama's somehow pro-gun. If he was anything else then that would mean you were wrong about something.

Hopefully everyone else took it as what it's for... food for thought. I'm just some guy on the Internet who speaks from his own experience. Your mileage may vary.
 

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The wanderer
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TPR, that was all nicely put!

Jeep, I respect your knowledge but I have to say that I think you're wrong about brandishing a gun or firing warning shots.

I think showing the gun as a deterrent is a good first step to get the aggressors to think twice about proceeding. If that doesn't do it, carefully aimed warning shots (like into the grass in the case that started this thread) are a good second step.

Firing from a hidden pocket without warning? Just doesn't seem like a good plan.
Seems like it would get you into more trouble.

Even in a rural situation that doesn't seem like a good plan.
 

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Family Friendly DJ
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TPR, that was all nicely put!

Jeep, I respect your knowledge but I have to say that I think you're wrong about brandishing a gun or firing warning shots.

I think showing the gun as a deterrent is a good first step to get the aggressors to think twice about proceeding. If that doesn't do it, carefully aimed warning shots (like into the grass in the case that started this thread) are a good second step.

Firing from a hidden pocket without warning? Just doesn't seem like a good plan.
Seems like it would get you into more trouble.

Even in a rural situation that doesn't seem like a good plan.
It's just that people who put this much thought into constructing a scenario where they can kill and get away with it makes my skin crawl. It's borderline psychotic thinking and there's an entire "self defense" industry out there which encourages it, teaching violence rather than self-defense.

I think I've even said it here before, self defense is 99% stuff not even involving having a weapon. It's paying attention to your surroundings. If you need to get to your car in the middle of a dark parking lot at night and there's 4 or 5 people hanging out around the lot.. you just maybe need to go inside and get an escort to your car, for example.

"Self defense" courses spend a whole lot of time drilling people on how to kill and get away with it, and pay lip service to REAL self defense. I saw a video of a guy teaching "pistol disarms" and it starts with a dismissive "Okay you've given him your wallet and everything, now all you have to give him is your life, so you do THIS AND THIS AND THIS AND THIS (for five minutes, including several things which are absolutely jaw-droopingly stupid like "If you hold the slide, the pistol won't fire!"). It has no bearing on real life. If someone wants your money and your life, they're going to take your life, and then your money. A mugger with a gun in your face is a threat display.

And he's willing to follow up on that display, so trying a super ninja grab for the pistol is a wonderful way to get yourself shot. I'll give the TPR self defense course on what to do if some guy steps three feet from you and points a gun at you and demands your wallet.

Step 1) Give him whatever he wants.

Step 2) Make eye contact, but don't stare. If he tells you to stop looking at him, see step 1.

Step 3) If he tells you to lay down on the ground, it's NOT because he's gonna shoot you in the back of the head or anally violate you, it's because he wants to run away and get out of sight before you can retaliate. See step 1.

Step 4) Don't argue with him. If he wants you to call him Daddy, see Step 1. Your penis is not made smaller by complying with the orders of a nutcase with a gun who has the drop on you.

Step 5) After he leaves, call the police. Call your bank and cancel your cards.

Step 6) Learn to pay closer attention to your surroundings so you don't walk into ambush again. People constantly say "he came out of nowhere". They may even THINK this is what happened. It didn't. You had warning signs. You just ignored them or didn't notice them.

If anything else happens, see Step 1. Caveat: if he just killed someone else in front of you.. all bets are off. Good luck! He still has the drop on you, remember!

You know why nobody teaches that course?

Because it's an 8-hour one day deal, rather than a money-making 2 year course on ninja death tactics. People like JH want to be sold magical techniques which will enable consequence-free violence. They don't want to be sold "real" self defense because "real" self defense might wound your pride and force you to accept consequences for doing something stupid and getting yourself in trouble.
 

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Family Friendly DJ
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However, he is correct to an extent. Showing a weapon and firing warning shots are crimes known as "brandishing" and "reckless endangerment" respectively. However, there's also the legal concepts of "competing harms" and "disparity of force", so this man should not have even been charged. It's okay to break certain laws sometimes.

It disturbs me deeply how many people think "justifiable homicide" is the only situation that exists in and you should completely ignore the rest, waiting like a dog waits for dinner for for the moment when you are "forced" to kill.
 

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Man Arrested for defending family with AK47 :gaah: Gang members win again.

A man in New York was arrested for defending his family from a group of gang members who came on to his property. George Grier told reporters that he used his rifle to fire warning shots into his yard because his home was under invasion from over 20 gang members.
I found this over at survivalblog if anyone is interested.

If you've been following the news, then you've probably heard about George Grier, the Long Island, New York resident that fired warning shots into his lawn, near a gang of at least 20 men who were threatening to invade his home and slay Grier, his wife, and their children.

In response to my recent query, resourceful SurvivalBlog reader David H. used Google Street Views to find George Grier's home address. It is:

George W. Grier
393 Northern Parkway
Uniondale, N.Y. 11553

If you feel convicted to do so, then please send George a note of support and prayer, and perhaps a donation for his legal defense.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks for posting.

I think I will send him a note.
 

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The wanderer
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I think I'll send him a note of support, also! Thanks, UncleJoe
 
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