Lead ammunition

Discussion in 'International Current News & Events' started by rockinr, Aug 26, 2010.

  1. rockinr

    rockinr Member

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    I heard on Glenn Beck today, that the EPA want to regulate lead ammunition. They are claiming that the lead is getting into the ground water and contaminating it. Has anyone else head of this?
     
  2. hardrock

    hardrock Well-Known Member

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    With the fall hunting season fast approaching, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) under Lisa Jackson, who was responsible for banning bear hunting in New Jersey, is now considering a petition by the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) – a leading anti-hunting organization – to ban all traditional ammunition under the Toxic Substance Control Act of 1976, a law in which Congress expressly exempted ammunition.

    http://www.ammoland.com/2010/08/25/e...al-ammunition/

    Congress is being bypassed by appointed shills with an agenda
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010

  3. NaeKid

    NaeKid YourAdministrator, eh?

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    On the Alberta Hunting forum that I am on, there was a posting about a newspaper-article from Toronto. They are saying that we shouldn't ban guns, but, tax-the-hell outta ammo and ammo-making stuff. Make it so expensive that the average person couldn't afford it ..

    :gaah:

    I think I'll go out and put 50 years worth of ammo on my credit-card - tomorrow! :eek:
     
  4. Magus

    Magus Scavenger deluxe

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    Not again....this crap comes up every time it looks like the liberals are going to lose power.
     
  5. *Andi

    *Andi Supporting Member

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    :gaah: ... A petition has been filed with the EPA (by a few groups) to ban lead ammunition and some fishing tackle ...:mad:
     
  6. Diego2112

    Diego2112 Well-Known Member

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    I'm all for taking care of the earth and all that (being a good steward), but this is just over the top. People have been hunting with lead ammo for more than 150 years, it's never been a problem. Now, I can see using steel shot for waterfoul, but I mean really, BANNING lead ammo and fishing tackle?

    Environmentalist wackos. If they cant BAN hunting, they're going to make it so damned expensive that no one outside the welthy one percent CANT do it!

    What's more, hunting is a MAJOR source of food for my family! Our goal THIS year is to TOTALLY phase out storebought meat. :2thumb:
     
  7. *Andi

    *Andi Supporting Member

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    :congrat: It is not easy the first year to phase out the storebought meats (kids :D)... but it gets better after that. :D
     
  8. Diego2112

    Diego2112 Well-Known Member

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    'swhy I'm so glad my daughter is like, LESS than two years old! :D Makes life easier when you're changing stuff! ;)
     
  9. Bigdog57

    Bigdog57 Adventurer at large

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    Won't happen - it's political suicide. The EPA has already reiterated their stand on NOT including ammo and fishing gear in this stupidity.
    The Uberlib twit in charge knows she'd soon be cast out soon as the new administration takesover in January, 2013. EPA regs CAN be overturned.

    Real science has already shown the fallacy of the EcoGeeks' words. Lead from hunting and fishing is NOT as dangerous as they think, and the loss of funding from hunters and fishermen would spell the end of many Conservation programs.
     
  10. hardrock

    hardrock Well-Known Member

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    Don't have a link but EPA denied the petition. Probably just a 'trial baloon' to see how strong the opposition would be.
     
  11. *Andi

    *Andi Supporting Member

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    I could not find anything one way or the other (net search) ... but I hope you are RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!

    The EPA had 90 days from the 2nd of Aug. to reply ... (from what I saw)...
     
  12. Magus

    Magus Scavenger deluxe

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    The Associated Press: EPA denies bid to ban lead in hunting ammunition

    Fox yanked their story in eight hours,liberal media can't let the peons know it didn't get its way.LOL


     
  13. JeepHammer

    JeepHammer Well-Known Member

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    Fowl ammunition has been lead free for some time in our state,
    Heavy metals other than lead filled the space nicely, and I have no complaints.

    The local gun ranges have about all gone 'Lead Free', and I don't have a problem with that in larger calibers, but finding lead free small caliber ammo has been a challenge...

    Just because the sign says 'No Lead Bullets' doesn't mean the guys aren't banging away with their old lead ammo,
    But since I shoot for accuracy, I don't buy that old surplus or cheap production ammo anyway, so making the switch to lead free isn't a big deal for me.

    The guys with 'Stockpiled' ammo are waiting for the 'Big One', which having lead ammo won't matter anyway, so I don't see the big deal there since they are sitting on the ammo and not shooting it...

    I do wish there were some lead free rimfire rounds for a reasonable amount of money out there...
    I do enjoy my rimfires, and 'Lead Free' ammo is hard to find locally.

    This is no worse than the ban on 'Hollow Points' in a bunch of states,
    The manufacturers simply started putting in 'Plastic' ballistic tips which often expand the rounds faster than a plain old hole in the nose did,
    So it's really not a deal breaking issue for me.

    Guys that shoot Cowboy or Muzzle Loaders might have issues,
    I shoot both, and so far none of the Cowboy or Muzzle Loader ranges around here have gone lead free...
    If that happens, I'm sure someone will come up with an alternative...
    I will be stuck with a bunch of lead casting equipment if they do, but that's just the price of progress,
    And if it makes for a cleaner environment, then I will change with the times.
     
  14. Bigdog57

    Bigdog57 Adventurer at large

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    I personally DO shoot surplus and the cheaper lead bullets. I reload, and prefer less expense. Not being a 'target shooter' in the officially-sanctioned competition' style, I still make perfectly good and accurate ammo with the less expensive and less barrel-damaging lead bullets. My choice.

    Seems to me far the better thing to kill a bad law than have to 'make do' with whatever a hostile Goobermint allows us to use, at THEIR discretion! Ultimately, they take away ALL our ammo...... :mad:
     
  15. HozayBuck

    HozayBuck Well-Known Member

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    It's much to do about nothing, all about "control" Lead comes from the earth, maybe digging it up and refining it changes it I don't know, I just know that it's been with us for god knows how many century's, most of us were raised in homes painted with lead based paint and are non the worse for it, East Helena MT is an old Lead smelter town and the EPA has run the place ragged trying to prove all kinds of things, but there are old folks living in the same home they were born in 80 years ago right across the road from the smelter and eating garden veggies grown in the "BAD" dirt and they are healthier then the EPA pukes, now something there don't ring true with me .

    An indoor range may have a problem but outdoors? I don't think so, but I don't know. they anti gun flakes jumped onto the lead thing years ago as a back door to gun control,

    We used lead shot for hundreds of years and I never saw a decrees in water fowl, not saying it's not bad for the ducks and geese but somehow I think it's more about control then anything else...Boiling frog thing...

    I say it's more about taking small freedoms away in the name of public good or to save the children...mostly buss ****.

    One day we need to just say no to the Liberal activist Courts like the 9th circuit court out of San F cal...
     
  16. JeepHammer

    JeepHammer Well-Known Member

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    That seems to be a mis-conception that 'Lead Free' is 'Barrel Damaging'.
    Since lead free is jacketed with copper, just like the lead core ammo is,
    there is no more barrel damage than with conventional lead core ammo.

    I've got a few years on my current barrels, and I gauge regularly, along with still shooting good groups, I can detect no extra barrel wear or damage at all.

    I finally found a reasonable lead substitute for my .308, same ballistics as the lead core rounds, and just as accurate with just a tweak of the powder charge... No big deal and I'm happy with them so far...
    Just hope they don't change the composition of the bullets now that I have my long range tables worked out AGAIN!
    That's frustrating when they change the 'Stuffing' and throw my ballistics off and I have to start over again! :mad:

    I don't have anything against the guys that shoot lead,
    Doesn't bother me one bit.

    I was just stating that I understand WHY the environmental impact people decided to make some recommendations, since the lead in the local 'Popular' state owned hunting spots, especially duck, goose ponds, skyrocketed.

    The local gun ranges that allow lead can still shoot lead,
    But after June 2011 they will be required to put a clay liner down under the backstop berms to keep the lead from leaching into the water table.
    Not unreasonable. I drink that water also, and since lead is water soluble, it's a pretty good idea...

    Since you are already moving a lot of dirt around for the backstop construction, spreading a 4" to 8" layer of clay around before you build the berms isn't a big deal.
    We have a LOT of clay around here (As witnessed by all the brick yards and pottery places in the area) so it shouldn't add too much expense.

    Older ranges are 'grandfathered' in to the law, and aren't required to put the clay liner down unless they remove the berms for some reason.

    I do know that the berm dirt has to be handled as 'Hazardous Material' from the lead content, which is substantial!
    My local private club range moved a berm recently, and it cost a FORTUNE to get that dirt processed!
    They just moved the old berm dirt to existing ranges so they didn't have to pay the disposal fee... (Just making it the problem of the next owner)

    I can remove 50 to 100 pounds of lead from berm dirt in one morning at the old range down the road when I'm scrounging for lead...
    There is 50 years of bullets in that range berm, so it's pretty full!
    (Matted bullets makes a good backstop! But environmentally unfriendly)

    For me, it's a sustainability issue.
    First off, lead mining is dangerous to the environment, lots of leakage, lots of energy used to mine lead,
    And lead isn't getting any cheaper to get to the surface and process.

    Secondly,
    It's contaminating my food/water chain.
    Anything I can keep out of my food/water chain the better off I feel about it.

    Third,
    The costs of cleaning up the old gun ranges is going to be HUGE.
    Science is finding out that lead is much more toxic than first believed,
    And the less lead we put into the ranges the better off we will be (or our children will be) in the long run when the clean up happens.

    (and if you are one of those "We don't have to clean it up" Types, then you aren't thinking forward enough to carry on this conversation)

    Personally,
    I view the old berms as my own personal lead mines for my cowboy bullets and muzzle loader bullets...
    Mostly because there is no other available substitutes for lead in those applications for me.
    When substitutes come along, I'll make the switch without complaints.

    This is SUSTAINABILITY ISSUE to me.
    Same guys that make arguments against solar panels, using less petroleum/coal/natural gas are going to make the lead bullets an issue.

    I like the idea of being able to eat fish/turtles/fowl from my little lake for the next few generations without lead issues from shot and lost sinkers in the food chain.

    I like the idea of being able to use the water without having to have giant filters for heavy metals.

    I like the idea of lead NOT leaching into my water table and winding up in my currently VERY CLEAN well.
     
  17. Bigdog57

    Bigdog57 Adventurer at large

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    Alright, I'll argue the points.
    1) ANY jacketed ammo will in time wear a barrel more than cast lead - proven fact, so don't need to belabor the point. I use jacketed as well as plain lead - depends upon what I am shooting and the purpose.
    2) Our local range has their berms in concrete & steel 'bunkers', open to the shooting side. Cleanup is a matter of closing the range for a day and a front-end loader scooping the sand out and dumping in a truck, then hauling it to whereever they do to 'clean it' and recover the lead - the Feds manage this facility so they have their crews do this. Paid by our "Pittman/Robertson" funds I reckon. :dunno:
    3) Lead contamination of the animals from hunters bullets is already a proven canard. Does NOT happen to nearly the degree the Tree Hugging Bunny Strokers say it does. No proof yet of contamination of our water table either - the local waters are tested constantly, and the table runs pretty shallow in most places here in North Florida.

    SO...... tell me again why I should pay premium prices for my basic shooting/hunting ammo and bullets? I just don't see it. I also DON'T want the Federales dictating our ammo requirements. Just as I don't want them dictating other aspects of my basic living. We preppers tend towards funny ideas like that. :rolleyes:
     
  18. gypsysue

    gypsysue The wanderer

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    Wanna know where I find most of the lead laying around in my environment? I find it on streets and along highways while walking or riding my bicycle.

    It's those lead weights they use to balance tires. I picked up nearly 30 of them in a 1-mile walk in Kalispell while visiting one of our kids. My husband melts them down and uses them.

    They run off into storm sewers and ditches and eventually end up in our rivers and lakes.

    Gotta think there are more of those laying around loose than there are lead fishing sinkers in the lake and lead bullets in the woods.
     
  19. HozayBuck

    HozayBuck Well-Known Member

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    Ok I just have to prove how dumb I am

    First I thought lead was mined from the earth not created in a lab and then used to poison the earth and all life on it.

    I always thought it was a natural thing and when dug up and run thru a smelter it was sorta "melted" or leached from the soil.

    I always thought that since it's there and water moves thru the earth some of it just got carried along kinda like gold does except I know it's not in chunks like gold..

    But one thing I do know is that the lead scare is being used by the anti gun clowns as a means to have some form of gun control, and yes there are people making a lot of money making special non lead bullets, but you can bet your *** that after the lead war is lost those same butt heads will come after the next thing.

    I refuse to believe a bunch of bullets sitting in the dirt of the back stop at my range is going to ruin anybody's water 50 ft under ground, I flat don't believe it.

    Arsenic is a natural occurring mineral and yes it's bad and maybe the old tailing piles have it in them, but why would it be any worse in a tailing pile then it was in the earth? maybe more concentrated?? could be...

    I've bit split shot all my life I've cast bullets for 40 years, I've melted, cleaned and fluxed wheel weights for all those years and all my blood work shows nothing as far as lead goes.

    I think this whole thing really boils down to the simple fact that some folks are into the tree hugger thing and some ain't . but I never seen a sportsman spike a tree to maybe kill a logger or sawyer in a mill and I've seen big mill saw blades explode from hitting those environmental land mines....

    So I guess we can agree to disagree on lead, don't shoot it or do matters not to me. I will and will cont. to and the entire EPA and the liberal dimocraps can kiss my old white wrinkled ***... sometimes a man just to say HELL NO! no more.

    There's my line in the sand!

    MAn I been up way too late!! hahahaahha
     
  20. Bigdog57

    Bigdog57 Adventurer at large

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    GypsySue, I am sure your hubby knows to be careful of the tire weights - more places are switching to zinc or steel these days. Zinc can look and feel like lead, but if tapped with a metal tool, it will 'ring' instead of 'thunk'. Some states have mandated ONLY non-lead weights can be used now. Same with fishing sinkers - hard to find good honest lead in many stores. The Evirogeeks are beginning to rule the nation.
    Lead is available from sources online - I will be ordering some shortly to make sure I have a supply for casting.
    I am also looking locally for it. I have a line on some lead roof flashing pieces from a friend who does metal casting as a hobby.
    Bullet casting will cap off my handloading needs nicely. Got all the brass, powder and primers I will need for my shooting the next ten years or more. :beercheer: