Great survival gun

Discussion in 'General Preparedness Discussion' started by sailaway, Apr 23, 2009.

  1. sailaway

    sailaway Well-Known Member

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    How about a flint lock? They are cheap right now, everyone wants inline. The gun shop doesn't call them in. You can nap your own flints, make your own black powder and mold your own bullets. There is plenty of balance lead on car tires. You can also use it to start a fire.:)
     
  2. Canadian

    Canadian Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure but I think there are limitations on how long you can keep black powder around before it becomes unstable. Metallic cartridges on the other hand will last for decades. It all depends on the F rating of the powder and other factors.

    There's also the wet weather factor and they are a little dangerous. You can over or under load them by accident. Some people even forget they loaded it and double load it. Plus very slow to reload.

    However, some areas allow and extended or early hunting season for black powder. The modern ones are really quite good. I'll stick to my center fire cartridges. That's just my preference.
     

  3. While it really depends on what you're planning on using the firearm for, for someone who has never shot a gun before, I would suggest:

    1. handgun
    2. shotgun
    3. rifle

    Shotguns are good for home self defense -- and it's hard to screw up with a shotgun.

    Handguns are good for public self defense. You can't go wrong with a Glock. They're particularly friendly for women who tend to shoot a little limp wristed (it's okay, I'm a woman, I can say that!)

    You may want to check out Women of Caliber for more on firearm self defense.
     
  4. NYsurvivalist6

    NYsurvivalist6 Guest

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    I'd take my 12ga over my 22. If food was really scarce and needed to hunt for it, I can easily take down a deer with the 12ga.

    But if I had a choice, I'd take my 22 as well.

    Like preparednesspro said, its hard to mess up with a shotgun. Its fool proof, I know first hand.
     
  5. Expeditioner

    Expeditioner Well-Known Member

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    I am a black powder enthusiast. I have no problems using the flintlock for hunting but would not use it for self defense unless I had no other choice. For self defense give me a modern day firearm.
     
  6. Canadian

    Canadian Well-Known Member

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    I just bought my first gun and it's a 12 gauge. Got to love how plentiful ammo is. I bought a case of Swiss army surplus 2 3/4" HOT 16 pellet shells 180 shells in the case. I feel a lot better now that I've got a gun in the house. It was sort of the missing piece of the puzzle that's finally fallen into place.
     
  7. doc66

    doc66 Well-Known Member

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    For a first firearm, as mentioned already, you really need to look at what you want to do with the firearm--is it going to be a hunting tool, a defensive tool, or do you kind of want it to fill both roles? Are you looking at a pistol or a rifle? Is it for hunting only? Is it the behind the door when strangers come knocking tool? While a firearm will do both things well, there are weapons that do one better than the other.

    A defensive firearm. They fall in to the category of "black rifles", the AR, AK, FN/FAL, CETME, HK-whatever and clones. The primary purpose of the firearm is simply the defense of the family. While you can hunt with an AR or AK if needed, the round was not really designed for that task. The advantages of the black rifle are that they come in small packages (most have a 16 inch barrel) collapsible or folding stocks and they hold many, many rounds. They can be dressed up with all kinds of optics and do-dads and generally made to look like a space gun out of your favorite sci-fi movie. You'll get a lot of answers for the best rifle in this category, but the truth is that a defensive rifle needs to accomplish some very basic things.

    1) It needs to be magazine fed. That is DETACHABLE magazines. There are people who will say that the M94 lever action is a good defensive rifle. In it's day it was. Today, it is slow, the action is complected and your ammo choices are either hunting rounds or pistol rounds. Detachable magazines are hell and gone better for getting back into action fast and laying down lots of rounds when suppressive fire is needed. And if you're the only one defending the home, suppressive fire might be the only option you have. Have lots of magazines. Magazines are consumables, they will get damaged and dropped, have enough to see you through the fight.

    2) It needs to be able to sport good optics, like a sturdy red dot or similar sighting system, AND have back up iron sights (BUIS) Red dots and their ilk are far superior to any other combat distance sighting systems. Iron sights are a must for when the dot goes down, or you have to take that extra long shot and they need to be regulated for distances beyond 100 meters.

    3) Have a good sling. This goes for any shoulder fired weapon. I'm talking about a good two or three point system, not a hunting sling. Some guys like the single point, but I am stuck on the two point system.

    4) Get training with it. There is no substitute for training, other than practicing the training you get. Look around for reputable trainers and spend the money on it. I'd pimp my training company here, but that would be wrong. (MilCopp Tactical: Ohio based Training)

    5) Have the rifle in a caliber that you are comfortable shooting all day, with precision shots and rapid fire. If you are hammered in the first 20 minutes at the range shooting your rifle, it is not a good defensive rifle. There are many people out there who will tell you that the .308 is the only way to go. I am not one of them. I like the .308, I have a black rifle chambered in that caliber, but it is not a primary defensive weapon. It is a secondary, defend the castle weapon. The 5.56 has so much going for it as a defensive round it's not even funny. with less interior wall penetration than a 9mm and better down range ballistics than a Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) in the same sized package, the 5.56 bests them hands down. The 7.62x39 is another great round for defensive shooting and with the cost of ammo these days, it's a little more affordable than an AR. The draw back to the x39 is that there are no (substantial) domestic ammo manufacturers for the round and so you are stuck with very basic loadings for the rifle, unlike the .223/5.56, which has specialty rounds out the bum.

    Those are just a few of the things that you need to think about in a defensive rifle. I run an AR15 with a 16" barrel, collapsible stock, EoTech and BUIS with a two point sling. A good AK system will work as well, we train people on both systems.

    As for hunting rifles--what do you want to hunt, you're only limited by your budget. That's a thread all its own, really.

    Shotguns for defense.

    I'm of the "a rifle is better" camp. I have a defensive shotgun, I keep it in the safe. It's got synthetic stocks and ammo carriers and extended tubes, and even with all that, it still doesn't beat a good rifle. You see, shotguns, even the one with extended tubes, rarely hold more than a revolver in a bigger package that shoots a more punishing round. A defensive shotgun should be run solely with buckshot. Forget all the crap about birdshot and slugs and the rest. 00 buck should be in the tube and nothing else. 00 buck, and only 00 buck, not birdshot, has the penetration needed for defensive shots on a target, even at defensive distances. IF you need to fire that weapon further, you need to have something that will carry its energy down range and birdshot will not do it. 00 buck is the defensive ticket. While I do train people to swap out slugs for distance shooting, slugs should be a considered specialty round for defensive shooting. You should use NO other type of rounds. Not Less Than Lethal, not birdshot, not anything other the 00 buck. There are various reason for this, but for this post, just trust me. 00 buck.

    I could ramble on, but I've done enough damage, I'm going for a run now.
     
  8. Canadian

    Canadian Well-Known Member

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    I say choice of a gun is very situational. Here's why I chose the shotgun.

    I live in a town home complex in a gated community in one of the largest cities in the world. My unit has narrow hallways and small passages between buildings. The longest distance between two walls in my stretch of the complex is 60 feet with most distances being 30 feet or about 20 feet a some points.

    We have a high population density and I don't want to kill any of the people in the units across from me if I have to use the shotgun. The pellets won't go through the brick and cement walls. Rifle rounds will and could cause lots of damage. High shots could also kill people in the surrounding condo towers.

    The shotgun is easy to score a hit with. Mine is a 14" with a collapsable stock so it's small and my wife can use it. It's also reliable. No gas impingement system to foul up. I can get ammo at many places locally. If it's a crowd of people looting the spread of pellets can hit several of them at once.

    Also in Canada you can't get mags that hold more than 5 rounds for a .308 and 10 max for a .223 AR. Topping off the shotgun with a few shells takes about the same amount of time as changing a five round mag.

    Also AR's are restricted in Canada meaning that you can only take them to the range or keep them in your house. Not on your property but "in" your house. If we have to run for it and we run into a police patrol or road block they would confiscate our AR. If we have a shotgun it's perfectly legal to transport it anywhere we want as long as the gun itself is not loaded.

    Most of the people we encounter will be armed with hand weapons. If anyone has a gun chances are it will be a handgun or some kind of sporting rifle or shotgun.

    In my situation I'd say the shotgun is best. It's all situational.
     
  9. doc66

    doc66 Well-Known Member

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    I understand that Canada has different rules/laws. You can get cool things that we can not get in the states, like the Tavor, you still have the Robinson XRC and numerous other AR-type weapons.

    I also understand the choices are situational.

    However, try reloading against an AR-type rifle with your shotgun, even with 5 or 10 round mags. I'll bet that the magazine fed rifle will out load and out shoot you every time. Round for round, the rifle has you beaten, not only in number of rounds down range, but also accuracy and distance.

    In addition to the round count, the simple punishment received by the shooter over a long period of single use is enough to get a strong man to flinch. I've done 300+ round days with a shotgun and it ain't fun. while it may be small enough to fit your wife, is it something she really wants to shoot? Combat shotgun techniques and women don't always go together, especially smaller stature women.

    As for over penetration, the 5.56/.223 WILL NOT over penetrate through exterior walls. Numerous scientific testing has shown this to be true, as well as experience in the Middle East. Over all, the 5.56/.223 is superior to other rounds when it comes to a defensive round.

    Now for the gas system on the AR, contrary to popular myth, it is a very reliable system. There is a reason why it is the longest running infantry personal service weapon in the US inventory: it works damn well. ALL firearms are mechanical systems, be it a slide action or a bolt or a direct gas system. ALL of them need to be maintained. I have over 1000 rounds through both my AR's at the moment and I've not cleaned either one. That was shooting Wolf ammo. I lube the bolt and go. I don't recommend it, but it still works.

    BTW, we've been talking with a group from Canada about running a BOLT ACTION defensive rifle class using stripper clip fed rifles like the Enfield and the Mauser 98. It's been fun trying to come up with different drills and loading techniques for this class.
     
  10. SonOfLiberty

    SonOfLiberty Guest

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    The best survival gun for the money is a nice bow and arrow set. Arrows don't deteriorate with age and you can always make new ones if they do. Heck, you can make a bow from scratch too with only a minimal education in how they're made.

    And the best part is that they are absolutely silent.

    Nothing worse in a SHTF situation than letting prowling "authorities" know you're nearby hunting game with a rifle crack. IMO

    Now if by survival you mean combat and hunting both, then well, go with whatever local law enforcement/military calibers are current in your region. In U.S. that would be .223/9mm/10mm (cops use that a lot) and I believe still .308. Reason being, well, for obvious reasons for when we have to pilfer from the nearest national guard armory. I have mixed feelings about .223, but if forced, I guess I'd go with a Mini-14. It's not wildly accurate past 200 yards, but, the entire gun is built on a solid and combat proven mechanism and it pretty much works every time you pull the trigger. My experiences with the M-16 line of weapons has been less than favorable, especially in situations which are less than pristine. It's more accurate by far than a Mini-14, however, I like guns that shoot when you pull the trigger in a non-perfect environment. :)

    Or, heck, a .22 LR is a good all around choice as well, and the ammo is much more portable. A 22LR bullet kills a squirrel just as well as a 10mm.

    Personally my weapon sof choice in a SHTF situation is an StG-58 (.308), a 1991A1 .45 sidearm. The .45 is useless once it's out of ammo, but there's lots of .45 ACP floating around the states still, and further, the only time you should ever have your sidearm out is when your rifle has failed or you absolutely have no space to wield the rifle effectively, so I don't foresee using it a lot. My wife has a Mini-14 and the son uses a lever action 30-30 (he's 12).

    That said, if hunting, I'd be using a bow and arrow and have a rifle strapped on, just in case.
     
  11. doc66

    doc66 Well-Known Member

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    I hate to dis your choice of rifles, but the Mini-14, while it's been around a while, is built on old technology that is been surpassed by far better systems--like the Stoner gas system. In addition to its firing mechanism (which I can't believe has not given you problems of some sort) the magazine situation for the Mini is dismal. The only non-Ruger mags I've found that work in Mini's are Black Warrior mags, and not all of them work all the time. I've owned Mini's as well and always sell them off for better rifles, like the AR. I even did a pretty cool project I called the Mini-Scout rifle.

    What problems have you had with the AR system? What kind of/brand rifle was it? I've never had any major problems with any of mine, most of them were magazine or ammo related, nor have friends of mine who carried them daily in Iraq and Afghanistan. What you'll find with AR's is that they are like 1911's, depending on what parts were used, they can be stellar or junk. There are so many manufacturers out there that you really have to know your brands to avoid the frankenguns of the basement builder. My first AR was one of these and I had so many problems with it I almost gave up on the breed. Once I got the right buffer and spring, it worked great.

    It is the preferred rifle for not only our forces, but the SAS, Israelis, and numerous other fighting forces around the world. Rifles will break down, they are mechanical devices and unless maintained, don't work.
     
  12. SonOfLiberty

    SonOfLiberty Guest

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    Not a lick of problems with the 2 mini's I've owned. Well, to date. And I generally don't go for the 30 round or less desirable mags. It's not a perfect weapon by any stretch of the imagination though, but for plinking eating animals out on the farm they work a treat.

    Every AR I've fired has jammed on me at least once every session I've fired them. From the standard crap A-1 we were issued in Basic (which you'd expect, the A-1 sucked), to the A-2 we were issued after AIT, through the CAR-15 private semi-auto systems I've fired that friends own. It may well be just my bad luck with them, but, if it is I figure I'll still have bad luck with them in the field under stress.

    Everybody else who has used M-16 or variants swear by them. Me, can't get off ten shots without them jamming consistently, and I know what I'm doing firing a weapon, I was trained and drilled on that gol-durn thing for years, so I can only chalk it up to foul luck.

    My plan, while in the military, was to use the M-16 to acquire an AK-47 to use as my main, as well as learning advanced bayonette and clubbing techniques in the event I couldn't locate a stray AK-47. :)

    Ideally for survival only, given what is a somewhat shady reputation for the mini-14 (maybe I'm just lucky with them, much as I'm unlucky with AR's), it's bow and arrow or .22LR for best results IMO, depending on if you have a base camp or not. Cleaning should occur but it's going to be of minimal concern if you're bugging out. Bows are silent, which I think would be important for at least the first few months in regards to general looters, and later months in regards to what we all know will be a well fed and prowling "authority" presence.

    Combat is entirely different. My StG-58 is a piece of work and I'm happy with it.
     
  13. Canadian

    Canadian Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. With each shell sending sixteen pellets downrange I've got your AR beat in terms of projectiles down range with one pull of the trigger.

    As far as range goes I already stated that the longest distance I could possibly have to shoot in my complex is 60 feet. Most targets will be 20 or 30 feet away. If the fight is in the hallway it's perhaps 10 feet. Range isn't an issue for me.

    As far as accuracy goes at 30 feet I can't possibly miss. I don't see how the rifle is more accurate. I could be a little off target and still score a hit.

    With 5 round mags I'd have to own 6 mags for every one that you carry. The shells I just carry in the shell holders. Although you may be able to reload a little faster I can top up on the move. You always have to change for a full mag even if the mag you are using still has rounds in it.

    Most people would say a pump is more reliable than the AR.

    Yes there are non-restricted semi autos in Canada but they all have incredibly long barrel lengths. My shotgun is 14" and still non-restricted. Trying to shoot out the doorway into the hall with a full length non restricted Robinson rifle or M-1A match would be more than awkward. It would pretty much be impossible if someone is shooting back.

    At 20 to 30 feet .223 FMJ will go through a wall. It just depends on the wall and the angle. I don't want to take the chance. It will go through a floor to roof condo glass window for sure. Pellets at that range would shatter the window but probably not have anywhere near as much energy as a rifle bullet.

    My shotgun has a knoxx recoil reducer and spec ops stock. I can collapse it down. The reducer cuts felt recoil by 75%. I also have the vang comp porting for another 15% recoil reduction. I have 2 3/4" remington reduced recoil LE buckshot on order. I can shoot this thing all day.

    I think for my situation I've got the right gun.

    If you disagree we can simply agree to disagree.
     
  14. Canadian

    Canadian Well-Known Member

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    Son of liberty - I also have a bow and agree on your points about the bow. I also think for rural folks a .22 is an excellent survival or bug out gun. The 12 gauge is also very useful as well. It all depends on your situation. In my city environment I'll never do any hunting so my choice is simply based on home defense against looters. That's pretty much it.
     
  15. SonOfLiberty

    SonOfLiberty Guest

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    Thanks. I live in the suburbs right now, but we have family land about 15 miles away (give or take), 40 acres, that will probably be where we'll locate if we get wind of anything coming down the pike. I don't expect to wake up one day and the lights are off and tanks are in the street, generally things like that have a build up that is quite obvious.

    Natural disasters on the other hand don't have me worrying about anything other than short term situational issues, and while I'd keep a pistol under my belt during a week's power outage, I don't consider that really a survival situation requiring careful attention to what weapon one uses.
     
  16. doc66

    doc66 Well-Known Member

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    Canadian, really no honest. I do this stuff for a living. The shotgun myth of more projectiles is just not true as far as being better. Yes, you get nine rounds of .32 caliber BALLs in the air, but as for penetration, they are anemic at best. They are the minimal you need to make a stopping shot. there is a reason why the Minni Ball was invented, and the Spitzer bullet. I have reams of shooting investigations and the shot gun is not as effective as people want to think, nor is the .45 or the what have you secret squirrel kill'em dead. Once you get past a certain point in a fight, only deep penetration and consistent hits to the center mass and thus the heart/lungs stop fights.

    As far as over penetration, that is just not true. Over and over the .5.56 fairs better than a 9mm (or other rounds for that matter) on interior walls and exterior walls. there is a reason why so many SRT/SWAT teams are switching from the MP5 to the M4 rifle: it doesn't over penetrate and has a better stop ratio than the MP5/9mm.

    You do have to have more mags with 5 rounds, but the amount of ammo you can carry in them verses the weight of your shotgun carrier beats the ammo issue. The rounds that are put down range more accurately with a rifle, they have better penetration than the shotgun and are in the long run, safer. Because with accurate fire, better penetration and the ability to put rounds in the boiler room, the rifle has it beat everytime.

    No matter your situation, you should be aware of your shooting lanes. But, at least here in the states, once you pull that trigger you're bound to be demonized no matter the reason you did so. This is less of a worry now that many States have the Castle Doctrine, but it is still a concern.

    This is what I tell people who want to use a firearm in a defensive situation.

    "If you don't have $100,000 laying around that you don't need, don't pull that trigger."

    That's the Base Line cost of a shooting here in the US.

    Also, have you shot buckshot at 60 feet? I'm here to tell you that even with TAP 00 Buck your spread is going to to larger than your target. You are going to have up to six .32 caliber balls going down range that never hit the target. And yes, you can miss at 30 feet. Stress and adrenaline and fear are all things that will make you miss at 30 feet. Even with a shotgun, it is not a miracle weapon that reduces all of those things named above. What can get you better? Training. Lots of training.

    The people who say a pump is more reliable than an AR have never used either under stress. Those same people say that the revolver is better because it is simpler, and that is just not true. A revolver has over 30 moving parts to it while a Glock has 30 parts, total, including the magazine. Shotguns can and are, short stroked under stress and the process of getting it back into the fight is involved. The manual of arms for an AR is simple, just like a pistol.

    Also, can I talk you out of the LEO ammo? It's reduced recoil means that the rounds are down loaded, which translates into less down range energy (forget the advertised at the muzzle listing, it's all smoke and mirrors) which in turn means less penetration, and penetration is the name of the game. You are honestly better off buying standard ammo and using it.

    But that's just years of experience as a firearms instructor, LEO and investigating shootings talking. If you want to disagree, that's okay too. I just train people to live.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2009
  17. Canadian

    Canadian Well-Known Member

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    Most civilian self defense shooting take place about fifteen feet or less from the target. You'd have a hard time claiming self defense if you're laying down "suppressive fire" or shooting people at 100 meters with your black rifle.

    At the range I expect to have to use the shotgun it'll work great. I intend to use it for home defense. That means shooting at people who are kicking my front door down. Not shooting at people down the block from me.

    Sure the shotgun can miss at 30 feet. So can anything else. I never said the shotgun was a miracle weapon but the patterning does make it easier to hit than with a rifle

    The police officer that I bought the shotgun from is the armorer for his department and teaches the armorer courses for the 870, AR15, and 37mm launchers for all of Ontario. You can't buy a 14" LE shotgun unless you're in law enforcement. The only way I could get one was by buying one from him. We had a good long talk about the 870 police.

    He's a career officer and is only a few years away from retirement. He's used all kinds of weapons under stress and said that for my home defense needs in my condo complex the 870 is an excellent choice. Since He's older than you and became a cop right out of high school I'd say he has more years of experience as a police officer than you do.

    The AR is made by a lot of people. I've been interested in buying one and he gave me a whole list of uppers and lowers that I should not buy. There are a lot of bad AR's and parts out there. Plus they do need to be well maintained to operate properly. I'll be taking armorer courses alongside LE's as he teaches them as he's open to teaching regular folks like me. I'm looking forward tot he 37mm launcher course.

    The reduced recoil ammo is for the wife. She's smaller than me and I'd like her to be able to use the shotgun as well.

    I trust what my LEO says since I've met him face to face, done business with him, and he's got an awesome reputation in the Canadian shooting community. When he says that my 870 is an excellent choice for home defense I take his word for it. I've gone through all the scenarios and options and my choices make sense for my situation.

    Do you want to cancel your bolt action course and tell all your students to go and buy black rifles? It's all a big toolbox. Pick the right tool for the job. All the tools exist for different purposes. Our Toronto ETF team still uses shotguns. So does JTF2 and all the other spec ops units in the world. It has a place and a role. I'm keeping it.
     
  18. julio

    julio New Member

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    I would not worry about a flint lock.
    A bow is good for hunting only. Problem is you need plenty of practice and it would need to be a long bow or recurve for long term use
    Bird shot for self defense is fine in close quaters situations 40 feet or less then use buckshot. At ten yards you will still have to aim because the spread is not but about 6 in. in most cases. It will penetrate more than enough. Thirty years experience talking hunting and training.
    Revolvers are better than autos in most cases they only have about 6 to 8 moving parts but they do still have to be kept clean.
    The beloved Glock is a fine weapon but one thing no one ever thinks about is lead. We are talking about survival firearms. You may have to reload or scrounge for ammo. With the Glock you just eliminated one supply of bullets and ammo that can be used. I have personnally inspected thirteen glocks that self-distructed on lead bullets and have talked to other amorers and instructors about others.
    5.56 will overpenetrate just like 9mm ball. Most tactical units use Tap or other fragmenting ammo. If you want to avoid op use hp not fmj.
    the Ar platform works great and is very reliable. Ak's the problem will be ammo and mags. Mini's are very good but mags and accuracy are the problems.
    Lever actions and pumps are fine for 99% of the situations you may ever encounter.

    Long winded for me. I know i will tick off a few but i have quite abit of experience and have done alot of research.
     
  19. vic2367

    vic2367 Member

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    ruger 10/22 rifle

    easy to get .22s ,,lots of assecories for the rifle,,:)
     
  20. Canadian

    Canadian Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree that a .22 is one of the best survival guns out there.