Can muslims be good americans?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by HozayBuck, Aug 19, 2010.

  1. HozayBuck

    HozayBuck Well-Known Member

    3,183
    16
    This came to me from a friend thru e mail, I know little of the Koran but have read enough to know this to be true...

    And yes some take it too far but the ones who don't won't speak out... fear of their own religion!

    And how many people are on death lists for some minor infraction against Muslim beliefs?


    CAN MUSLIMS BE GOOD AMERICANS?
    This is certainly 'food-for-thought'.



    This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to finish. And send it on to everyone. Maybe this is why our American Muslims are so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities.

    Can a good Muslim be a good American?

    This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.
    The following is his reply:

    Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon god of Arabia .

    Religiously - no.. . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam . (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)

    Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.

    Geographically - no . Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

    Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews .

    Politically - no.. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America , the great Satan.

    Domestically - no. .. . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )

    Intellectually - no. . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

    Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

    Spiritually - no.. . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' The Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.

    Therefore, after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.

    The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. ....

    Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within. SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.
     
  2. horseman09

    horseman09 Well-Known Member

    1,240
    4
    Hozay, I'd have to agree with you and disagree with you.

    I have read the Que'ran, but I am cetainly no expert. Having said that, I am very, very concerned about Islamitization of the West. Everything you stated above is, IMHO, true, but it doesn't have to be that way.

    A good example is Jewdism. Essentially, they live by the Old Testament. Yes, the Talmud, but still..........The Old Testament.

    But Jews don't execute the Old Testament verbatum in today's world. They have evolved just as Christians have evolved away from such a horrendous history of violence (can you say Inquisition?).

    Since the title of your post is, "Can Muslims be good Americans?", IMHO, the key word is "Can". Can Islam evolve from the 12th century ideology of obsolete and absolutely rigid dominance and intolerance on pain of death or torture? I don't know. But so far, based on their record, a good parlor bettor would say no.

    Overwhelmingly, nations that have predominantly Muslim populations are brutal, anti-democratic countries that treat free speech, basic human rights and 50% of their population -- women -- like garbage.

    If you rephrased the question to ask: "Will members of the Islamist movement be good Americans?" I'd have to say "NO. Not until or unless horrendous events turns the world against them". If you believe history predicts the future, think 911. It's just the beginning.
     

  3. HozayBuck

    HozayBuck Well-Known Member

    3,183
    16
    Howdy Horseman
    I think Muslims who stay in a smaller town / city and not packed into a community of their own can and do avoid the problems that rise up in the Muslim ghettos ..just as Blacks who live in smaller towns seem to prosper better then jammed into projects.

    If that sounds racist I didn't mean it to, just a fact , here in Helena MT we had some blacks moved in during Katrina who stayed and are working and living as good neighbors. their were 2 black family's here when I moved here, and they were and are good folks and were well respected and liked by all, I never heard a bad word about any of them.

    Living conditions and no work can play hell with anybody, the key is to stay away from crowded places...

    But they all pack in together because of language and fear of a strange place and so become easy prey for the militants


    So can they? sure, will they? most won't until they see a better way to live.
     
  4. ttruscott

    ttruscott white belt

    46
    0
    One of the reasons the terrorist murderers don't hesitate to blow up other Moslems is that they consider them appostate and are therefore commanded to kill them.

    A good American Moslem is no longer a Moslem in their view...and yet many are ignored because of taqiyya, the allowance for Moslems to lie to non-Moslems when outnumbered so they can infiltrate and destroy them from within.

    So how would you ever tell if he is trully apostate of practicing taqiyya?

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEC11YJ2oCk]YouTube - Taqiyya: Lying To Spread Islam[/ame]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2010
  5. kogneto

    kogneto The Skeptic

    280
    0
    lol i don't know which version you read horseman but it might have been titled wrong. I've heard Quran, Koran, Qur’ān, Coran or Al-Qur’ān, but never que'ran
     
  6. OldCootHillbilly

    OldCootHillbilly Reverend Coot

    3,848
    7
    Que'ran, sounds like the BBQ bible!:D
     
  7. kogneto

    kogneto The Skeptic

    280
    0
    I prefer mine with Mosque-ite sauce thank you
     
  8. HozayBuck

    HozayBuck Well-Known Member

    3,183
    16

    What I read in the Koran, whatever it's called is that there is no sin for them to lie to , steal from, murder "non Believers"
    Anything done to a non believer that furthers Islam is fine... so no you can't trust them just like Obama, he can say and do anything while being a secret believer and it's alright.. with them...NOT ME !!....

    Yawl can believe anything you want, I don't trust them, and i don't trust Obama...

    I believe in my country and myself and a few close friends ... everybody else has to earn it the old fashion way... :D
     
  9. JeepHammer

    JeepHammer Well-Known Member

    684
    1
    No worse than Christians.

    Those idiots are actually having a 'Burn a Quarn day!
    If we had a 'Burn A Bible Day', they would FREAK!

    It always amazes me what "Christians" will do and how they rationalize it!
     
  10. gypsysue

    gypsysue The wanderer

    4,350
    22
    You're right, both sides are capable of some pretty awful stuff. Too bad they can't be respectful of each other.

    Who's having the 'Burn a Qquarn day', and where? Why would anyone, especially supposedly civlized 'sensitve' people, think that would do anything other than stir up more hate? That's sad.
     
  11. JeepHammer

    JeepHammer Well-Known Member

    684
    1
    Watch the news!
    Burn a Quran is a nation wide event being planned on 9/11!
    I live in the middle of nowhere, and the idiots around here are handing out CD copies of the Quran to burn on 9/11.
    Do a google search.

    I hope they breath the smoke from those burning CD's...
    'Quran Lung' would be a fitting payback for something this stupid!

    --------------------------------

    It's like those idiots running around the country protesting the FUNERALS of dead solders saying this is 'God's Punishment for letting gays in the military'.

    First off, soldiers die in EVERY war...

    Secondly, there have been 'Gays' in the armies of the world long before these idiots ever started protesting.

    Third, It's just bad form to protest the very funeral that gives them the right to protest in the first place.

    I have no problem with 'Gays' in the military, I have thought that EVERYONE with an IQ of above about 85 should do at least one hitch in the military... Even the handicapped.
    No problems at all with sight diminished or club foot when you are a file clerk or librarian, and 'Solider' doesn't mean battle field 'Warrior',
    Remember, each combat troop needs about 85 people in the rear to keep him fed, clothed, supplied with beans, bullets and bandages.

    Do you think that J. Edger Hoover ever decided to throw a gay out of the FBI while he was wearing a dress? ;) Probably so...

    And gays have been there all along...
    Take the guy that decided to issue 'Berets' instead of proper covers that are functional... :eek:

    Take a look at military dress uniforms, only a gay guy would have come up with those!:rolleyes:

    Would missles be shaped differently if women ran the military? :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2010
  12. gypsysue

    gypsysue The wanderer

    4,350
    22
    Well, JeepHammer...I googled it and got quite a few hits. A church in Florida is spearheading this "burn a quran" day, trying to get others to join in, on 9/11/10.

    I hadn't heard about it. We're far more remote than you are, but internet access should have evened the odds of hearing about it.

    That is so disturbing, this nonsense of burning the quran. How does lowering themselves to what they gripe over about the muslims/al quaida make this even remotely acceptable? What a poor example for any religion to set.
     
  13. Diego2112

    Diego2112 Well-Known Member

    269
    2
    I have lived with and around muslims/islamic people, and I'm here to tell you, they are NOT all evil terrorists, they are no different than us. Yes, they have their crazies, just as we have ours (think the Klan and those types, even these quran burners).

    Hell, some of my BEST friends are muslim, even though I'm christian. I'd never disresepct their religion, just as they dont disrespect mine. We share views, we disagree, we rebuttle, and we have a good time. They know if they have any questions, come to me, just as I can come to them.

    Yes, the dont serve the same God I serve. Big deal, neither does my vocalist (in pointed FACT, he dont serve ANY god! lawl). Why should that matter?

    When it comes right down to it, we all bleed the same, we're all just trying to understand the world the best way we can.
     
  14. HozayBuck

    HozayBuck Well-Known Member

    3,183
    16

    I think where you argument goes wrong is trying to compare bad Muslims to bad Christians , A bad Christian may piss you off but a bad muslim will kill you and everybody around you.

    There is no way around the fact that there seems to be an unending supply of Muslims willing to blow themselves up to push their religions " Only us" point of view.

    I can't remember the last time baptist stoned somebody but the Muslims just did it last week. nor can I remember the last time a christian religion mutilated the genitals of a young girl so she can't enjoy sex while being a sperm depository for men, the Muslims do it all the time even to this day.

    Now nobody can tell me this is just a very small part of the Muslim world when it goes on every day in any place where there are Muslims.

    A christian may say you have dishonored God and pray for you, Muslims are bound by their "good"(?) book to kill you in the name of God.

    One of the most in demand cosmetic surgery's after Boob implants is the repair of the Hyman of Muslim girls who attend collage here and have to go home to marry, if they don't show blood on the sheets they can and most likely will be killed by their husband or their father or some other male family member.

    I'm sorry but Best friends or not there is no way to excuse the actions of Muslims the world over, maybe the ones here adapt the "Go along to get along" attitude while here, but back home they revert to their religions teachings..

    Islam "requires" the rest of the world to convert or die, this is not compatible with my idea of a religion.

    I'm not a bible pounder or even a religious person, but I sure as hell know the difference between a religion of love and one of death.

    You have the right to think as you wish as do all of us, go with your Muslim friends to their country's and see if your accepted as you accept them.

    Just my POV
    HB
     
  15. horseman09

    horseman09 Well-Known Member

    1,240
    4
    Very well stated, Hozay.

    And Diego, you said, "Yes, the dont serve the same God I serve."

    Uhhhh, they sure as hell do (hehe -- a little religious humor there) :D.

    Mohammed "created" Islam in the late 600s AD. Muslims even believe in Christ, but that he was a minor prophet. Muslims live by their own version of the Old Testament, and unlike the Jews who do also, much if not most of Islam never evolved into a modern, civilized belief system.

    To echo Hozay, some whacko fringe Christians and Jews alike can be obnoxious in the name of God, but I'm trying to think of examples of those fanatics whipping a woman in the public square for driving a car or for leaving her house without a male-family escort (Saudi Arabia) or stoning a woman for alleged adultery while leaving the man go free (Iran) or, as a matter of enforced doctrine, treating women on the same level as their dogs (much of the Islamic world).
     
  16. Diego2112

    Diego2112 Well-Known Member

    269
    2
    I wasnt trying to compare bad muslims to bad christains. I was comparing religious extremists to OUR brand of extream.

    And I wasnt talking about muslims in the US, hell, I dont even KNOW any muslims in the US! I was talking about muslims in Jordan, and in Sudan. I lived in BOTH countries for EXTENDED peroids of time, and not only was I WELCOME, I was RESPECTED and LOVED, regardless of the fact I was a christian. In pointed FACT, a gentleman I worked with in Jordan would actually tell his children "Why cant you be more like him?" when they'd get out of line or what have you. So yes, I've lived there, and I have seen FIRST HAND what day to day life is like for the NORMAL people.

    I know full well what goes on in some islamic countries. I was not making excueses for them, or holding them up in any type of light or what have you. All I was saying is, that is not the mindset of the ENTIRE muslim populace. that is a FRACTION of them. That would be like saying ALL christians are like those crazies out there that protest military funerals, somethingorotherbaptist church (NOW I've compared them, and yes, they may not stone you or what have you, but fact is, it still gives THAT faith a bad name).

    Saudi Arabia and Iran ARE bass-ackwards, yes. But not ALL islamic countries are like that. Like I said, I lived in Jordan for a LONG time, amongst the people, and I am here to say, they are just as easy going as we are. In FACT, the KING of Jordan is relaxed and laid back about it! He actually SANCTIONED a CHRISTIAN ran organization that I worked for. And women there are NOT treated like dogs. Granted, they're not EQUAL to MEN, but it's still a step in the right direction.

    There are some messed up things in the islamic world, yes. But please, dont confuse the leaders with the people.

    Personally, I realize that me saying ANYTHING in the first place was probably a mistake, because nothing I can say will change anyones mind, nor can you change my view. I will continue to love and reach out to these people as I always have, and as EVERYONE should.

    And yes, I also know the difference between a religion of love and one of death. I never SAID they were RIGHT. All I said was "they're not all like that."
     
  17. flatwater

    flatwater Well-Known Member

    45
    0
    Just as soon as the "good Moose limbs" stand up against the bad ones then I might feel different. But I would need your deffinition of a good Muslin. If your talking about a good person who claims to be a muslim then there may be many of those
     
  18. HozayBuck

    HozayBuck Well-Known Member

    3,183
    16
    Hey Diego , I will admit I didn't know you were speaking as somebody who has lived over there and yes Jordon is different so I've heard from others..

    I have not been there I've read their book a bit and found it to be not of my liking, to say all Muslims are evil is to say all Blacks hate whites , yes there is good and bad in all of us, but Jordon is a small place with a very small military, in fact it's mostly the Kings body guards, and if Iran says squat they will do so in a heart beat... and who could blame them?

    But even here in America almost none of the Muslims have spoken out about the bad Muslims or 911 , some yes but damn few, why is that? and I mean the ones who were born here and converted...

    If the more powerful leaders here speak out against the evil aspects of Islam I'll start to believe they aren't all bad, the little people just want to live in peace.

    Islams biggest mistake is believing that all Americans are weak and won't fight, and it will be their undoing , they don't think we have the will to fight to the death and maybe some don't but most Americans will and they will discover that like Japan did that it's best to let sleeping Dragons lie.

    I know that if it had truly started on 911 it would have been the end of the Muslim so called empire because once we really and truly throw down the gloves we Americans are not gentle enemies .

    But as long as we as a nation are held captive by the PC crowded we will appear weak, best to be non PC and let them see the beast held back but loosely by the thread of civilization.

    There I've waxed poetic enough, when the time comes we will win, they will die.

    If you know them as well as you say, tell them that, that not all Americans are weak and our women fight beside us and are as much warriors as the men. who knows it may help.
     
  19. Diego2112

    Diego2112 Well-Known Member

    269
    2
    Sudan, Egypt, Jordan, the UAE (to a certain degree), Turkey, these are all islamic nations, and for the most part, they let the people live as they will (granted, in Sudan, socalled "president" Bashier is a dirty little :ignore:, and I cant WAIT untill he's gone, but I digress). And yes, Jordan may be small, and have a small military, but they are honorable people, and they are muslim.

    As to why AMERICAN muslims havent spoken out, in particular the CONVERTS to the religion, I usually lump them in the same catagory as Westboro Baptist and their ilk, as do most ARAB muslims. Hell, to be FAIR, since they can neither read nor write arabic, then they cant REALLY read the quran! Just sayin'.

    I was there when Saddam Hussain was removed from power. I was there when they were dancing in the streets, because they were FREE, because the "tyrant had been removed."

    It wasnt "Islam" that attacked America, no more than it's "Christians" that molest children. One WACKO faction is all it takes, and we demonize the rest. How very sad this world has become.

    At least I maintain a civil tone and respect throughout, without resorting to being petty. I find that both disrespectful, and insulting, not to them, but to ME. If you cannot continue in a civil manner, then please, do not continue at all.
     
  20. JeepHammer

    JeepHammer Well-Known Member

    684
    1
    I spent 2-1/2 years in Pakistan, Afghanistan in the US Military, and I found the Muslim people to be warm, generous, true blue to the core, and would defend their visitors to the death,
    And often did!

    They would feed us and go hungry themselves,
    They would provide us with shelter, security while they stood watch in the cold or heat for us,

    They were BRAVE fighters, with no fear that I could detect,

    When YOU have faced down a formation of Mi-24 Hind helicopters with nothing more than small arms, then I would be interested in your opinion.

    They faced down, and WON, over the entire Russian army, with little more than small arms and I don't take that lightly...

    They pushed the British 'Empire' out TWICE.

    During the Ill fated hostage rescue of American Hostages in Iran, (Operation Eagle Claw) in April-80 it was Muslims that rendered aid comfort and security to the US forces that were seriously screwed up on the ground after air craft crashes, at the risk of their own lives...

    That part never seems to get told...
    That the Bedawans that rendered aid to the US troops were MASSACRED by the Ayatollah Khomeini forces.
    They put up one hell of a fight before they were finally killed, giving our troop rescue time to make withdraw possible.

    Unless you have never seen a camel charge on an armored vehicle to buy US troops time, knowing full well they were going to be slaughtered, then you probably don't understand Islamic/Bedawan culture.

    It seems you guys are taking some extremists and judging the entire religion from that aspect.
    What you don't understand is,
    The rest of the world look at 'Americans' as a 'Genocide' race,
    Murder of 52 Million Native Americans,
    The ONLY user of Atomic Weapons in war in the world,
    MASSIVE polluter of the world,
    MASSIVE user/abuser of the bulk of the resources of the world,

    It all depends on your viewpoint, from what location you are looking.

    Personally, my 'Religion' has never had an 'Inquisition',
    It's never massacred off any population because it wouldn't 'Convert',
    It's never built a Nuclear or Fossil Fuel power plant,
    It's never invaded and taken lands that weren't native to them.

    Get your OWN HOUSE in order before you start pointing fingers and making accusations...