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I invented the internet. :rofl:
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just on more screw-up and cover-up by the BATFE. Add some more names to the list of innocent victims killed either directly by or as a result of the BATFE's arrogant disregard for the law, truth and public safety.

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Exposed: The secret guns sting that backfired on the US - Americas, World - The Independent

"Exposed: The secret guns sting that backfired on the US

America's firearms watchdog allowed weapons to flow in, failed to catch ringleaders, then tried a cover-up

By Guy Adams

Thursday, 16 June 2011

Some of the thousands of military-grade modern weapons seized from the drug gangs

Some of the thousands of military-grade modern weapons seized from the drug gangs

The lethal fallout from a botched operation by the US Department of Justice which allowed almost 2,000 illegally purchased firearms to be transported from the streets of Arizona to drug gangs in Mexico has been laid bare in a scathing Congressional report, which concludes that it resulted in countless deaths.

A mixture of arrogance, over-confidence, and staggering ineptitude by the Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives [ATF] was outlined in a 51-page investigation by two Republican members of a House panel charged with getting to the bottom of what went wrong during a two-year operation called "Fast and Furious".

It tells how, between 2009 and this year, the ATF instructed agents to turn a blind eye to hundreds of AK-47 assault rifles, sniper rifles, and revolvers purchased from gunshops in Phoenix and en route to Mexico. They hoped to eventually recover them from crime scenes and build a complex conspiracy case that might take down the leaders of a major drug cartel.

In the event, the operation resulted in the arrest of a handful of small-time crooks. But it exacerbated an already-huge spike in violence on both sides of the border. Two of the guns allowed to "walk" into the hands of criminals were used in a shoot-out that killed a US border patrol agent, Brian Terry.

The report describes his death as "a preventable tragedy", detailing how many of the ATF agents involved in Fast and Furious began to object to what they saw as the "reckless" nature of the operation, which conflicted with all known protocol and may turn out to have been illegal. But when they raised their concerns, they faced "punishment and retaliation" from their superiors.

It also highlights the symbiotic nature of the deadly drug trade between the US and Mexico, which has resulted in approximately 38,000 deaths since 2007. Cartels make their money smuggling cocaine and cannabis north from Mexico, and simultaneously equip their private armies with assault weapons purchased thanks to America's notoriously relaxed gun laws.

Fast and Furious revolved around so-called "straw" purchases of firearms, in which a buyer purchase military-grade hardware from a gun-store with the intention of illegally passing it to a criminal third party. ATF agents who track suspected straw purchases typically run intensive surveillance operations allowing them to arrest suspects and recover the guns. During the Fast and Furious operation they were instructed to simply let the weapons disappear.

A record was kept of their serial numbers. The idea was that this would later allow agents to link individual weapons to particular crime scenes. Somehow, this was supposed to help the ATF build up a nuanced picture of the complex structure of a major drug cartel, which would in turn lead to high-level arrests. But it wasn't to be.

"Both line agents and gun dealers who co-operated with the ATF repeatedly expressed concerns", about the operation, the report says. "But ATF supervisors did not heed those warnings. Instead, they told agents to follow orders because this was sanctioned from above."

In total, agents watched at least 1,730 guns flood on to the black market, knowing they would be used to commit murders and other violent crimes. Their concerns about the policy were ignored. In one email to field staff printed in the report, ATF supervisor David Voth suggested that staff who objected to his orders would be fired.

"I will be damned if this case is going to suffer due to petty arguing, rumours, or other adolescent behavior," he wrote. "We are all adults, we are all professionals, and we have an exciting opportunity to use the biggest tool in our law-enforcement tool box. If you don't think this is fun, you are in the wrong line of work, period!"

John Dodson, a special agent from Phoenix who eventually blew the whistle on the "flawed" operation, told congressmen his superiors would be "giddy" with delight when "their" guns were found at a crime scene in Mexico, because they believed it "validated" their tactic. With regard to potential loss of life, an ATF boss told him: "if you are going to make an omelette, you need to scramble some eggs."

On 14 December, disaster struck when the US border patrol guard, Brian Terry, was killed during a shootout with suspected illegal aliens on the Arizona border. His killers dropped their rifles to flee faster. Two of the weapons were AK-47s which had been intentionally allowed to walk during Fast and Furious.

Rather than admit to any mistake, the ATF embarked on a cover-up. William Newell, the special agent in charge of the operation, ordered the arrest of 20 of the people agents had been watching buy weapons for months. Then, although not one senior cartel member was arrested, he held a press conference declaring the operation a success.

Newell was then asked if any weapons had been deliberately allowed to end up in the hands of criminals. He replied, "Hell no!" The report describes that statement as untrue and "shocking." It alleges that the Department of Justice continued to attempt a cover-up for several months.

The fallout from the report's publication remains to be seen. It was written by two Republican congressmen, Darryl Issa and Charles Grassley. Some right-wing commentators have suggested that Fast and Furious was sanctioned by the Obama administration in an effort to justify tightening US gun laws. But the White House has said it had no direct knowledge of the operation." (Emphasis mine)

Right ... Obama had no idea what the agencies under his control and direction are up to!
 

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performing monkey
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"gun sting"... yeah, right :rolleyes:

it took them THIS long to come up with a lame cover-story like that? :mad:

I notice nobody in the lamestream media is talking about the weapons found in previous raids that were already logged as DESTROYED.
 

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Seeking The Truth
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LOL, this is what they think of our intelegence ! They must not like us they insult us at every turn.

Never would have herd a peep out of them if that poor kid with the beanbag rifle had'nt have gotten killed.

The war on drugs is not against the pushers,its against us.
 

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I have more than a few (B)ATF(E) friends ... (around here they are still ATF.)

And I don't blame them but the people at the top ... The one that gives the orders ... Chain of command.
 

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Seeking The Truth
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I have more than a few (B)ATF(E) friends ... (around here they are still ATF.)

And I don't blame them but the people at the top ... The one that gives the orders ... Chain of command.
At the same time don't they like our militay have to swear to defend the US Constitution against enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC?

They should refuse illegal orders.Of course this will get them in trouble but if they ae ready to die for their nation they should be ready to fight unlawful orders ,like gunrunning for a foreign criminally insane nation,like Mexico and domestic America.

Look what silence did to those marines at Ft.Hood? Look what it is doing for America.
 

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At the same time don't they like our militay have to swear to defend the US Constitution against enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC?

They should refuse illegal orders.Of course this will get them in trouble but if they ae ready to die for their nation they should be ready to fight unlawful orders ,like gunrunning for a foreign criminally insane nation,like Mexico and domestic America.

Look what silence did to those marines at Ft.Hood? Look what it is doing for America.
And who is to say what's an illegal order or an unlawful order ... Do they get their orders and say hmmm ... I don't think so ... let me call and see if this is an illegal order or not. (I go back to Chain of command.)

I'm from a militay family and here to tell you ... it don't work that way. Have there been times when they did ... yes ... but that is a whole different thread.;)

If you read some of the "debates" from this forum you would see ... Not all folks see the same thing with the same eyes. What you see as an illegal order or an unlawful order ... others may not.

It is not so easy to say I'll just to blow off an order ... This is JMHO ...
 

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I invented the internet. :rofl:
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
"And who is to say what's an illegal order or an unlawful order ... Do they get their orders and say hmmm ... I don't think so ... let me call and see if this is an illegal order or not. (I go back to Chain of command.) ..."

If they are ordered to violate the law I would assume that it was an unlawful order. If they've sworn to uphold the law how could they logically be ordered to break it? If they violate the law then how are they better than those they arrest for violating the law?

LEO's, like preachers, need to be held to a higher standard. Obviously, it would be difficult to refuse to obey an unlawful order yet when I was in the service we were told that it was our duty to do so. If there's no accountability for those who enforce the law then how does that differ from a dictatorship?
 

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Seeking The Truth
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And who is to say what's an illegal order or an unlawful order ... Do they get their orders and say hmmm ... I don't think so ... let me call and see if this is an illegal order or not. (I go back to Chain of command.)

I'm from a militay family and here to tell you ... it don't work that way. Have there been times when they did ... yes ... but that is a whole different thread.;)

If you read some of the "debates" from this forum you would see ... Not all folks see the same thing with the same eyes. What you see as an illegal order or an unlawful order ... others may not.

It is not so easy to say I'll just to blow off an order ... This is JMHO ...
I know what your saying but far too many times people don't speak out in fear because they know things are'nt right. Maybe they did'nt know they were selling and delivering guns to drug runners. I'm sure this was kept as secret as possible.

Not trying to insult your friends at all,just saying anyone who knew should have spoke up.

The way I see it if we can send people to die for this nation in a foreign land ,we can at least be brave here.
 

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If the (a) law was broken, arrest them (jail time, etc) ... but start at the TOP because they too have to swear to defend the US Constitution against enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC (also).
 

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It is kinda hard for people who have no military experience to understand how orders are given and obeyed. It isn't that easy to decide an order you were just given is not legal. It is even harder to say no to an order.
The majority of time those who are given an order are such a small part of the plan that they do not know the results of their actions. There is a reason for this.
Advising others to say to no to an unlawful order is easy. Being the person who has to say no is a different matter.
 

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I invented the internet. :rofl:
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
If the (a) law was broken, arrest them (jail time, etc) ... but start at the TOP because they too have to swear to defend the US Constitution against enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC (also).
The "top" is normally where the problem begins and also the most difficult to pin anything on. Unfortunately even when they "resign" they are just put someplace else. The top guy here should spend some time in prison.

On the other hand, if the top dogs knew for sure that they'd face the music they might be more careful in what they do. It's still the responsibility of those "below" to refuse illegal orders. If they don't fulfill their responsibility then these types of abuses will never end. They're cops, surely they'd know how to get evidence against those issuing the illegal orders and cover their back-side.
 

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I invented the internet. :rofl:
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
It is kinda hard for people who have no military experience to understand how orders are given and obeyed. It isn't that easy to decide an order you were just given is not legal. It is even harder to say no to an order.
The majority of time those who are given an order are such a small part of the plan that they do not know the results of their actions. There is a reason for this.
Advising others to say to no to an unlawful order is easy. Being the person who has to say no is a different matter.
Sometimes it's hard for those with military experience to understand why some of these "orders" were obeyed! Whatever happened to personal responsibility and men with balls?

We arent talking about 18 year-old kids here who've never been on their own in life. These are adults. They've taken on adult responsibilities with adult consequences. They aren't the only ones who've faced unpleasant consequences in the workplace.

The fact that those enforcing the law are as bad as the people they're going after should send a shiver of fear and disgust down every honest citizen's spine.
 

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Aesops Ant (not Aunt)
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On 14 December, disaster struck when the US border patrol guard, Brian Terry, was killed during a shootout with suspected illegal aliens on the Arizona border. His killers dropped their rifles to flee faster. Two of the weapons were AK-47s which had been intentionally allowed to walk during Fast and Furious.
A little off topic but this Brian was killed not too far from where I live and did you know that the border patrol had him armed with bean bag shot? So they allow weapons to be sold illegally to bad guys (that despite the constitution are illegal even for citizens to own) and then arm our border patrol (those charged with keeping illegals and their contraband out of our country) less than lethal arms? INSANE! Is everything backward?
 

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YourAdministrator, eh?
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Update to this story:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/02/1...n-terry-murder-is-sentenced-fast-and-furious/

Fast and Furious defendant gets 30 years in border agent's killing

TUCSON - A man convicted in the shooting death of a federal Border Patrol agent during a firefight that revealed the government's botched gun-smuggling investigation known as Operation Fast and Furious was sentenced Monday to 30 years in prison.

Manuel Osorio-Arellanes, who is from El Fuerte in the Mexican state of Sinaloa, is the only person to be convicted in the Dec. 14, 2010, shooting death of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry near the Arizona-Mexico border.

U.S. District Court judge David C. Bury handed down the sentence, 360 months with credit for time served.

The shootout erupted just north of the Arizona border city of Nogales as Osorio-Arellanes and four other men who are accused of sneaking into the country to rob marijuana smugglers approached Terry and three other agents who were targeting such rip-off crews.

Osorio-Arellanes was wounded in the shootout and was the only person arrested at the scene. Four other alleged rip-off crew members fled to Mexico. Two of the four are now in Mexican custody, while two others remain fugitives.

Osorio-Arellanes maintains he was not the shooter who killed Terry, and prosecutors agree that evidence supports his claim. Still, they say he is liable because he was a voluntary participant in the rip-off crew.

Two rifles bought by a gun-smuggling ring that was being monitored in the Fast and Furious investigation were found at the scene of the firefight, though authorities have declined to say whether the murder weapon in Terry's death was linked to a purchase from the investigation.

Federal authorities who conducted Fast and Furious have faced criticism for allowing suspected straw gun buyers for a smuggling ring to walk away from gun shops in Arizona with weapons, rather than arrest them and seize the guns. Agents allowed the purchase of 2,000 guns, but they then lost track of more than 1,400 of them. Some of the guns purchased illegally with the government's knowledge were later found at crime scenes in Mexico and the United States.

The guilty plea by Osorio-Arellanes in October 2012 marked the biggest conviction to date in a case that embarrassed the federal government and prompted a series of congressional investigations. Members of the gun-smuggling ring that was being monitored in the Fast and Furious investigation have pleaded guilty to federal charges.

Prosecutors had recommended a 30-year sentence for Osorio-Arellanes.
 

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I find it interesting that he was convicted for being a voluntary participant even though prosecutors admit he probably didn't pull the trigger. Under that reasoning wasn't Holder and Obama both "voluntary participants" of the operation too?
 

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I invented the internet. :rofl:
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I find it interesting that he was convicted for being a voluntary participant even though prosecutors admit he probably didn't pull the trigger. Under that reasoning wasn't Holder and Obama both "voluntary participants" of the operation too?
More like instigators. Wasn't the sole purpose of F&F to trace the firearms to future crimes. They supplied the weapons. I imagine that the current (mis)administration would welcome laws that would punish gun owners who had firearms stolen (or not secured sufficiently) and used in crimes yet they themselves are guilty of approving illegal firearm sales for the sole purpose of those firearms being used to commit crimes.
 
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