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The wanderer
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here's the scenario. What would you do next?

You're working along at your job and paying your taxes and doing everything right. Then...you get a letter from the IRS saying you have unreported income and you owe them a few thousand more dollars in unpaid taxes. You're thinking WTF? You call them and they say you earned $24,000 at a job 1,500 miles away in a state you haven't been to in years. You tell them the information is incorrect.

The IRS first mails you a confirmation notice of the call and it's nature and promises to act within 60 days. They then mail a paper to you showing your employment at a full-time job (the one you actually worked) as well as income earned at another full-time job 1,500 miles away. You call and spend hours on hold to tell them someone else is using your name and social security number.

They send another notice confirming your call and then another bill for the taxes, this time with penalties. You then file a report at the police department and notify the FTC. The police department gives you a case number and does nothing. You write all your state and federal politicians, and hear nothing. You email the local newspapers, they do nothing. You go in to the local Social Security office, they fill out papers, and do nothing.

This has been going on since 2007 and has grown to a box full of related paperwork. Tax refunds for all these years have been confiscated, any money in the bank over $2,500 has been confiscated, and now a notice came that they were going to take the house. They owe this guy and his wife between $12,000 and $15,000 of tax refunds and other money they've taken, for income these kids did not earn.

Who is this happening to? Our daughter and her husband.

My son-in-law has print-ups from his employer showing the dates/days and hours he worked. He has reports from dr. visits and hospital stays in these past few years. All to prove that he's been here in Montana while someone with his name and social security number has been employed full-time in Arizona simultaneously.

We CAN'T get anyone to do something about this. The kids finally got scared when the IRS was going to take the house and they 'sold' it on payments to one of our other daughters, who knows the IRS could show up, and they fled up here to our place and they're staying in a motorhome.

I took them in to the county sheriff's office here and we filed a report, but they said we had to go through the sheriff's dept. in Arizona where the crime is happening.

We called down there and after being passed from person to person, they told us THEY can't do anything about it, that the department up here has to. I called back to ours and they said no, uh-uh, Arizona has to take care of it.

I started crying and he said maybe I could try the FBI. My son-in-law has filed reports with the FBI three times and each time it's like a whole new thing to them. When he calls back to check on it, they don't know anything. Once they threatened to have him arrested if he didn't quit calling. I called the FBI myself this morning and left my name and number. Five hours later no call, but it could still happen.

I thought my son-in-law was being a bit of a wuss and not really calling these people until they got up here a few weeks ago and I started being here for the calls and made a few myself. This is all true, as unreal as it sounds.

We can't afford a lawyer and they shouldn't have to pay for a lawyer to do something the police departments or IRS or someone should be looking into. We live 400 miles from the state capitol, 65 miles from a 'real' town with things like a social security office. I don't know where the nearest IRS offices are.

I've thought up crazy things like claiming my son-in-law is using some other guy's name and SS# so they'd arrest HIM and sort it out, proving there's two people using the same name and SS#. Our son-in-law was in the Navy, so presumably there are fingerprints or something to back up who he is. He's 34 now. But then they'd probably arrest me for making a false report and I'd spend more time in jail than this guy in Arizona (Assuming he's not someone they could deport).

I tried to find out if the guy down there is married, thinking it would be funny for my daughter to produce their marriage certificate with the name and SS# on it and say he (the guy down there) is married to two women. But we're afraid they'd arrest our daughter for something like false report.

What the heck do we do?
 

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edirPsmaP
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1,587 Posts
Call a lawyer! I see no other choice but to call a lawyer! See if they will just take a percentage of the back taxes that are owed to them. Most lawyers do not charge for an initial consultation. Call one that specializes in tax law.
 

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Registered
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1,240 Posts
Call IRS and demand access to an "IRS taxpayer advocate". To the best of my knowledge, IRS is still required to provide one.

Good luck.
 

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The wanderer
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4,350 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks, both of you, for your advice. I looked in the phone book and there's only one lawyer in NW Montana that mentions tax law, and he has a website, so maybe I can send an email with a brief summary of what's going on, and see if he can help.

Meanwhile, we didn't know about the taxpayer advocate thing, so tomorrow morning I'll call on that and see about it. Again...thanks. This has been so frustrating and mind-boggling.
 

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YourAdministrator, eh?
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8,000 Posts
I have nothing to say except good-luck on this .. it sounds insane!
 

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Premium Member
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I can tell you what I done ...:eek:

It was not the IRS but the Gobbermint. ( DEQ, EPA, ATF and about 10 others :gaah:)

I had a bill total of about 25,000 bucks. (for clean up) My crime ... Buying land and a cabin that had once been a drug lab. I will not go into the whole story but in the end, what cleared me was a call to the police dept. from CNN.

Will that help with your problem, not sure but it can't hurt. Call them all Fox, CNN, ABC, NBC and the whole lot. (Send a e-mail to each reporter) The Networks need stories like your son-in-law and if you can get the story out to the public ... Then maybe something will be done.

Also give a call to Sean, Rush and Beck ...(all of them)

It may me a long shot and maybe I got lucky ...:dunno: but I can't see that it would hurt.

Best of luck ...
 

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The wanderer
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks, andi. Maybe I'll write out a decent summary of what's been going on and email it to every one of them. We were so sure our son-in-law was full of it, like I said above, because it just seemed like a bunch of bull, until we saw the box of papers and the records he and our daughter kept of calls, names, dates, times, etc. Maybe I can black out some info like SS# and scan some of the better paperwork, the ones that I'm dumbfounded looking at!
 

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The wanderer
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4,350 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I got the phone number for our state's Taxpayer Advocate and called it, and they wouldn't talk to me without a Form 8821 giving me permission from our daughter and son-in-law to discuss the situation.

We downloaded the form and filled it out, and faxed it to the IRS. By Monday I should be able to have a conversation with the advocate.

The FBI still hasn't returned the call I made to them Wednesday Morning (it's Friday night right now).

MMM and I are working on an email to send to all the major news agencies. Good thing we're both writers! :D

I sent emails again yesterday to all our state and national politicians, though that seems fruitless.

We sent a certified letter to the IRS in Fresno, California and told them we want to go to court over this.

I thought maybe I'd take off on my bicycle and ride to Arizona with a banner on my back saying "Ride for Justice" and see if any newspapers or TV people stop me and ask about it. :D (Okay, any excuse for a bicycle trip, I admit it!)

We're going to throw together a 12' by 16' "cabin" with a sleeping loft for our daughter and son-in-law since they can't spend the winter in a camper. The building supplies will be delivered by Lowe's on Monday and we'll be busy building after that. It'll have a woodstove in it, so they should be warm and dry, and we'll have plenty of food to go around. If we get this stupid situation straightened out the kids will have a pile of money back from the IRS and they can get their life back.

And I can start sleeping at night again.
 

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RockyMountainCanadian
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4,288 Posts
I hope this works out for all of you, you hopefully are on the right track with the taxpayer advocate.Good luck
 

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I am a little teapot
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Good lord. I just read this thread start to finish and I can't imagine what you guys are going through. Just remember that you need to mind your P's and Q's with this-don't make smart alek comments or be sarcastic. Yes sir and no ma'am will probably get you a lot further than yelling, even if you have to grit your teeth.

The news will probably love this. They seem to like these "little guy gets what he deserves in the end" stories and will sometimes help make surre the outcome is favorible.

Good luck to you and yours and please keep us posted.
 

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The wanderer
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
lol, me yelling or being a smart alek? I'm more the break-into-tears and beg kind in this kind of situation. "*sob* Please, help us get this straightened out, it's ruining these kids' lives and costing them thousands of dollars, and I'm not sleeping at night any more, I don't know where to turn, no one will do anything about this". Though that's after I calmly explain what's going on in the voice of a concerned person who trusts that the person on the other end of the phone will help. I hate the tears thing but I get frustrated and can't stop it.

I'm just stunned at the lack of help we've gotten on this, from real government agencies like the Sheriff's dept, the IRS, and the FBI! I'd think someone would care enough to do their job and help straighten this out.

Though I'm getting to the point where I fantasize about going in and grabbing someone by the collar and say "LISTEN YOU SOB ---" and a bunch of unprintable things calling on language learned from movies, etc., you get the picture! It's good stress relief to picture it. If my kids knew, they'd bring a bar of soap with them when we go! :ignore:
 

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My thoughts

[BHi GS
I learned a long time ago that writing a politician is a waste of time when dealing with anything... at all!...

I would go to the IRS office with all the paper work..all the letters and sit down with one of the agents..not a clerk...a real card carrying agent...

And tell them your next visit is to your State and Federal senator to show them the same paper work...

File the paper work with them.. make them take it ..give them certified copies... get a rcpt...

Once that's done and filed and in their system and you have a rcpt in hand the ball is in their court... after that it's just a waiting game...

When I had issues with the IRS asking me to send in whatever I called them and said well if you want me to file on things I don't understand you have to send me everything I need because I have no idea what your looking at..send me copies of your data... never heard another word...

I know for a fact that going in and sitting down and looking them in the eye works.. then go to the local office for Testor and Bachus and leave copies of the paper work..get a rcpt.. tell their staff you'll be calling in a few days to see where it is... take copies to the Governors office, get rcpts...

Go to the police dept and sheriffs office and file a complaint of Stalking and harassment against the IRS... leave copies with them... get a rcpt... now set back and wait...because sooner or later it will all come to a head.. really..it will...honest.. your dealing with a snake with a thousand heads and none know what the other head is trying to swallow and sooner or later it will all come together and the snake will choke... At that point..it will open it's eyes and say WTF!!.. And at that point your kids will be in the drivers seat and a hungry lawyer will be happy to talk to you...

First of all they can't take the kids house... simply because the lender is in first positions , the best they can do is force a sale hoping to get a few bucks... but it has to sell for enough to clear the bank or lien holder same with their vehicles... if they have any with clear titles then sell them to you..

Even if sooner or later they were to push it to the max and head for court.. well then it all comes out.. in fact..I'm not so sure your SIL can't file charges against the IRS and force them to come into court and show cause.. I'm sure not a lawyer but what they do sitting in their office and in court is two different things...

Don't give up and don't let them stop living.. I promise the IRS will not come to arrest them or do more then knock on the door.. invite them in, sit down and talk to them.. eye ball to eye ball.... have your own tape recorder.. all the time...record every phone call...tell them your recording...

Truly I've been there done that... hell when they threatened to "Send Agents" to my door I said bring body bags coz you won't get them all back...really I did say that... I used to be a very vocal radical right wing azzhole... now I'm just ...the same ....but old enough to not give a rats ass...

Really luv, nothing to worry about, your kids are right, the fed is wrong...[/B]
 

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performing monkey
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4,230 Posts
One important thing... are the kids "underwater" on the house?

Unfortunately, under section 6334 of the Internal Revenue Code, they CAN seize your home and basically toss you in the street, but it (supposedly) hardly ever happens. Once again, this does not mean that they ever will, only that the law permits them to do so. It may be of little comfort to taxpayers with huge debts, but the IRS cannot take a home if the tax debt is less than $5000.

The larger hurdle for the IRS and one that usually slows them down considerably is this - before the IRS can seize a taxpayer's personal residence they must apply to a neutral magistrate (judge) for permission to do so. This requirement limits the ability of the IRS to act unilaterally. While the tax man can take your bank accounts and retirement without asking a court for permission, the law requires them to ask in the case of a house. This gives the taxpayer the opportunity to work with the IRS to resolve the outstanding tax debt. Like Hozay said, the IRS does not want your house, it only wants the money. If you work out a plan to pay the money, the IRS will not take your house.

Before the IRS will even consider taking a personal residence, it must determine that there is sufficient equity in the home to justify such a drastic measure. For example; if your home is worth $240,000 and the mortgage on the home is $300,000, then there is no equity in the home and the IRS will show no interest in seizing it to satisfy your tax debt, also like Hozay said. The IRS uses the QSV "quick sale value" (80% of the full fair market value) to make this determination. Example 2; Your house is worth $300,000, so the QSV is 80% of $300,000 or $240,000. If you owe more than $240,000 then the IRS will show little if any interest in taking your house (hopefully).

What if you owe only $225,000 and the QSV is $240,000? Then, in theory, the IRS could take the house and use the $15,000 remainder to apply to your debt. However, it is unlikely they will do so for such a small amount. The IRS is aware that taking a personal residence is a serious act, and will, for the most part, do so only in rare situations and only after making numerous attempts to resolve the liability through other, friendlier methods.

A tax debtor does not have many options to choose from when trying to resolve their tax debt. The first (and least likely) way is to pay off the debt in full. EF THAT! Who has $50,000 sitting around to pay the IRS! The second option is the installment agreement. The problem there is that the IRS will want you to pay the debt within 60 months, often calling for a monthly payment FAR greater than you can afford. The lst option is an offer in compromise. Under this solution, you offer the IRS an amount less than what you owe, but what you can (hopefully) afford to pay over time (the same 60 months). IF they accept your offer, they will stop all collection actions and you will be expected to pay the amount of your offer religiously. The offer in compromise will cost somewhere around $3,000 to a licensed attorney or CPA. From the time you hire an attorney to prepare it for you, expect a delay of several months while the documents are collected, prepared and submitted.

For those taxpayers who want to present an offer in compromise to the IRS but who do not have the $3,000 to spend, a complete package for assembling the offer is available at...

www.offerityourself.com

...at a fraction of that price. By following the ten step program you can compile and submit your offer within a few weeks, not months, and save thousands in the process.

I know somebody who actually WAS 'guilty' of not paying enough tax & used option 3 to pay it off... after 60 months he got a certified letter saying that his obligation was fulfilled (he ended up only paying about 10% of what he 'owed').

sorry, wish I could help...

hopefully, once you prove the ID theft, all ya'all will be able to get this resolved
 

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Premium Member
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certified copies ... documentation. (everything!!! )

(That is a biggie.) HozayBuck, hit the nail on the head.

Keep a log book of who, what and where ... if you guys call someone log it. Same with e-mails and such. If you visit an office write it down.
 

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GS, lots of good advice above, but they CAN freeze/confiscate bank accounts, and they CAN garnish wages and otherwise make their lives miserable.

Demand a tax advocate Monday morning. After expaining everything, request all collection activities be frozen immediately pending resolution, and as others have said: document, document document.

Be prepared to fax documentation to the tax advocate ASAP.

Hang in there.
 

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The wanderer
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4,350 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Everything is documented, down to the most obscure-seeming phone call: dates, times, and who was talked to.

All paperword received, and copies of those sent out, are all neatly stacked in a box.

The kids don't own anything on the house. No debt, no loan. They used savings and inherited money, right before real estate skyrocketed out here (and subsequently crashed).

The nearest IRS office is 400 miles away in Helena. People in other places have a hard time understanding just how rural it is here and how far we have to travel for services most people take for granted.

I would LOVE to sit down with the IRS or anyone willing to listen and look through these papers we have. I'm hoping the court thing will produce that, but we have to travel that 400 miles to court (when we finally get a court date) each way, at our own expense.

Sad to say but our money might be going for that and related expenses rather than for our trip back east, meaning we might miss that absolutely wonderful-sounding get-together. :cry:
 

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performing monkey
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I've flown over Montana in my plane and I thought it looked like what I imagined the surface of the MOON looked like! It seems like the type of place most of us on this forum would like to live. ;)
 

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The wanderer
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4,350 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I've flown over Montana in my plane and I thought it looked like what I imagined the surface of the MOON looked like! It seems like the type of place most of us on this forum would like to live. ;)
Absolutely! We have 989,000 people statewide (Less than a million!) in a state many times bigger than most other states! Very rural, very unpopulated. Our nearest neighbor is half a mile away!

Surface of the moon, I love that! :D

Of course when bad things happen like this, it's hundreds of miles to the people who can help (after all they're from the government! :eek: )

(BTW, we do have exellent medical personnel, 20 miles and 65 miles away, and they use helicopters for most "pick-up and deliver to hospital" events, so ambulance time isn't a concern.)

I have good news though! :)

I got an email this morning from someone in our congressman's office saying he'd been assigned to look into this, and he asked half a dozen intelligent questions that seem intended to find out if this is for real. I just finished answering the email at length and included scans of four of the best pieces of paperwork proof. To date, no one has even LOOKED at any of the paperwork, which we've so lovingly and carefully tended in it's nice sturdy cardboard box! lol

He also asked for a list of all the agencies and government offices that did nothing when we reported it.

*dance dance dance* Maybe this will go somewhere now, but I hate to dance too much until I hear back from him again AND someone looks at this box of papers. Then we can hope it will really be straightened out.
 

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Premium Member
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I have good news though! :)

I got an email this morning from someone in our congressman's office saying he'd been assigned to look into this, and he asked half a dozen intelligent questions that seem intended to find out if this is for real. I just finished answering the email at length and included scans of four of the best pieces of paperwork proof. To date, no one has even LOOKED at any of the paperwork, which we've so lovingly and carefully tended in it's nice sturdy cardboard box! lol

He also asked for a list of all the agencies and government offices that did nothing when we reported it.
Always happy when you have some good news! I hope it pans out. :2thumb:
 

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The wanderer
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4,350 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Always happy when you have some good news! I hope it pans out. :2thumb:
Thanks. I answered the email from the guy in our congressman's office, answered all his questions, and I haven't heard back. I don't know how long to wait before badgering him! :D

I guess I should still be pursueing these other things, like the Taxpayer Advocate and the news media.

I'm so tired though. We've buried under way too many projects plus building a cottage for the kids, and not sleeping well. I'm tired.
 
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