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Discussion Starter #1
If a person chooses to purchase antibiotics from a fish supply source, such as Amoxicillin and/or Keflex as an example, what doses used for various ailments? This would of course be for after TSHTF and lets say a wound of some sort. I guess I'm picturing a lot of wood-chopping accidents for some reason. So yur husband shows up at the door with blood on his pants. He's got a gash in his let and you just HAPPEN to have a suture kit. You stitch him up and then turn to the antibiotics to prevent him from dying from an infection. Which to use and how much?
Any sources for dosing on the web? I've been looking and I'm not really finding anything helpful so far. Seems to me that if you're going to have meds on the shelf, you should have a basic ailment/dosing chart with them. Something like a laminated recipe card that says "sore throat - adult - 500mg 4 times daily for 5 days" or something similar.
I totally get it that diagnosing and treating is dangerous if you're not an MD, but who is going to have that luxury after?
 

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amoxicillin adult 500mg three times day, for seven days, break down to smaller than 500 at one time if it makes somebody sick. This is for treating an infection. When somebody shows up at the door with a cut, and you sew it up, it is not infected. Let their body try to fight it off first. Keflex go the same route. I happen to have somebody here in the house that knows what they are talking about. They have 1000mg pills, but don't give that much. Over 120 lbs, give adult dose. I am talking after things get bad. I will probably be the doctor around here. This is just a suggestion, this is not medical advice, I hold no responsibility, I didn't do it, it was like that when I got here....... I am sure some doctors will scoff at this. But, there is an old man down here that is good at growing things. He was a young guy overseas in WWII, and they made him sew a colonel's thumb back on, and it stayed. That guy is almost a hundred now, still grows a garden, saw him driving through town and go in the hardware store last week.
 

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The Black Pilgrim
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Ok, I am not a doc and since I have a family full of EMTs, RNs, and MDs I have not focused too much on the medical side of things, so I can only pass on info from my medical team, it is second hand info so take it as such and by all means get some medical people of your own or at least a little training.

First thing you have got to understand is that the word anti-biotics is like the word fast food, it encompasses a whole gambit of drugs useful for a whole lot of different types of bacteria. ANTI-BIOTICS are not one size fits all types of ailments. For upper respiratory issues azithromicine may be the proper protocol whereas something like amoxicilian might be useless. ONLY BACTERIA respond to anti-biotics, thus there are a boat load of ailments that do not. THUS you really should either get a medical desk reference book and drug dictionary OR at least research each drug you have and its uses.

Also different doses are recommended for different issues and also based on the body mass of the patient--this is why the serious prepper MUST HAVE the books or an RN to really be prepared. Doing a little bit of research on your own you can figure out a handful of anti-biotics that will respond to the most common and most life-threatening infections. The Patriot nurse has a good video on basic anti-biotic preps:

Also, most all antibiotics have some side effects up to and including death (allergic reactions) I supposed. The worse case senario is that you administer a drug that has no potential to help AND harms your patient in the process, thus wasting the drug and harming the person.

One final reason to be serious about knowing how to take the drugs is that if you don't take a full protocol, which today would mean ALL the antibiotics in the container the doc prescribes you most likely are killing most but not all the bacteria and TEACHING the remaining bacteria resistance to that drug. If all you have is amoxicillan then you definitely don't want to go around creating drug resistant strains--note enough of them already exist because of people misusing their drugs.

NB not using a portion of your prescription when you are sick is a STUPID way to prep.

Anyway WIKI has a chart of drugs, their common uses, and their common side effects: List of antibiotics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For an infection by infection protocol take a look at drugs.com. JUST REMEMBER the net may not always be available so if this is all you have as a reference make sure you print it out!

Here are the ones I keep on hand:
Amoxicillin Dosage - Drugs.com
Azithromycin Dosage - Drugs.com
Ciprofloxacin Dosage - Drugs.com
Ampicillin Dosage - Drugs.com
Metronidazole Dosage - Drugs.com
Doxycycline Dosage - Drugs.com
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I am also aware of the broad rage of antibiotics and that each infection 'type' if you will, responds differently to different meds. Since I doubt most people will have a microscope to examine swabs, or know what they're looking for if they did, I think it's at lease prudent to have a few, easily obtained and affordable antibiotics on hand. I agree that you have to learn as much as possible.
I think people will have to wrap their heads around the concept of "death from paper cut" after TSHTF.

P.S. Are you concerned with the storage life of the Doxycycline? My understanding is that any in the 'cycline" family becomes toxic after the expiration date.
 

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If you're going to store any medications, there's a lot of knowledge that needs to go with that. You need to know dosage amounts for various ages, sizes, conditions as well as how to calculate those doses. For example, if you have 325mg pills & need to give 100mg or 500mg, how are you going to achieve that? You need to know the potential side effects of that medication & have the knowledge to diagnose those side effects as well as the knowledge & supplies necessary to treat them. You need to be able to accurately diagnose the conditions for which your stored medications treat as well as know when the body has done all it can do to restore health & medication is necessary. Just because someone has a cut doesn't mean an antibiotic is needed. Remember, medications will be in short supply & will have to be used sparingly. You also need to know what happens to each of those medications once they reach their expiration date, some are fine to use, some get weaker, but some will kill you. IMO, everyone should have a drug information book of some sort such as a nursing drug book, they can be had for under $5 used on Amazon. Even if you don't store many medications, you never know what supplies you'll be able to scavenge or trade for.

Just as important as knowledge about medications is knowing how to prevent illness altogether as well as prevent it from getting worse. Knowing how to treat a wound initially (you don't always sew it closed) can make all the difference as to whether that wound is a minor inconvience or a cause of death. Sanitation will be a major issue & having the supplies to keep food, wounds, etc. clean will be vital. You can't have enough bleach, vinegar, alcohol, salt, exam gloves, etc.
 

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The Black Pilgrim
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Better living through modern pharmicology

Since I doubt most people will have a microscope to examine swabs, or know what they're looking for if they did, I think it's at lease prudent to have a few, easily obtained and affordable antibiotics on hand.
You don't need a microscope to realize that you use one drug for sepsis and another for upper respiratory and another for anthrax. You just need to know which drugs go with which symptoms. And a little bit of luck... ;)

P.S. Are you concerned with the storage life of the Doxycycline? My understanding is that any in the 'cycline" family becomes toxic after the expiration date.
In my situation no I am not. As I said I have a doc on hand who can write me a legal script every couple years, and my job takes me abroad where I can buy drugs without a script, SO I rotate without much trouble.

I wanted to point out, but am not sure where I saw it, on one of the blogs there was a link to a doc who started up a SHTF meds business. Basically he will interview you by phone, get your history, review potential uses should the SHTF and then send you the drugs with instructions for emergency use only. The cost is just a few dollars more than for fish drugs.
 

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The Black Pilgrim
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You are right though Tetracycline and its family of drugs including Doxycycline can cause hepatotoxicity if used after the expiration dates. I keep it because I understand it to be the drug of choice against Lyme disease, a serious concern in my area, as well as its uses against anthrax and bubonic plague less likely but possible weaponized agents that could be used by states or terrorists.
 

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I recommend EVERYONE have a drug book on hand. As a nurse, I update my nursing drug book every couple of years. It has drugs by generic or name brand, along with what they are commonly used for, correct dosages, side effects and things to look out for in the way of interactions with other drugs or food/drinks. The PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) is also available. You can get either of these off of Amazon.

We all owe it to ourselves to take an active role in our health. Don't just trust the doctor to tell you what the drug is for, or the nurse to tell you what not to eat when you are taking something. What if one of them is having a bad day and forgets to tell you something important?
 

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I'm going to guess that fish medications are not help to the same standards of purity and accuracy as human meds, or even those for cats & dogs. A minor inaccuracy in dosing at fish size could compound and be a major inaccuracy in a 150 pound human. Something designed for laboratory and zoo use would be better, but I don't know that would be any easier to get than human drugs.

Given that uncertainty and the ones others have mentioned, I think a lot of focus on infection prevention is called for when it comes to wounds.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'd rather try to do as much research and have some meds on hand that could save a life than to say, "gee, sorry I can't give you anything for that festering, puss-filled wound cause only a "real" doctor could do that." I guess in my mind, with all the horror that could/will be around us, anything at all would be better than doing nothing. COULD people die from an irresponsible or uninformed person handing out outdated antibiotics, or trying to treat/diagnose without any training? Sure, it will happen. But then again, will the doctors have the tools/meds to treat anybody in the hospitals? There won't be any MRI's, no CAT scans, no EEG, no EKG, no lab work etc. etc. All the things that an MD currently relies on for an accurate diagnosis and the correct medication. Once power goes off, that's it. They pretty much go home and try to take care of their own families. We're on our own, folks.
 

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The wanderer
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I guess in my mind, with all the horror that could/will be around us, anything at all would be better than doing nothing. COULD people die from an irresponsible or uninformed person handing out outdated antibiotics, or trying to treat/diagnose without any training? Sure, it will happen. .
And even more will die because people won't know what to do.

Even worse, some will die because people were afraid to try.

I'd learn all I could, stock what I can, and do my best when TSHTF. We have a son-in-law that decided to give the fish antibiotics a try when he got a dental infection. Like he said, he wanted to try it now, while there was still medical back-up in case something went wrong or the antibiotic didn't work.

It did work, and I don't know if he'd do that again, at least until TSHTF! We've done similar things here at home, testing out home remedies, herbs and such, knowing that we have the medical community for back-up right now. Risky, I know, but I'd rather get some of the learning curve out of the way now, when our lives don't depend on it. And speaking of which, nothing we've treated at home was what we considered 'life threatening', though I'm sure the potential could be there.

LazyDaisy, I think you're very responsible to be looking into these things and getting educated about it. :congrat:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
When I first read on here about fish antibiotics I thought people were talking about some sort of powder like you'd sprinkle on top of the water! :scratch As I've looked into it I've found that Amoxicillin, as an example is not only the same chemical make-up of the human meds but the EXACT same pill!! They are sold at a fraction of the cost even at Walmart! Pricing it out I found that it's approx $2.50 per pill at the pharmacy as compared with .15 per pill at the fish store! :eek: I guess based on that I pretty much feel like it's safe as long as I research as much as I can about uses and dosages. I haven't gotten any books yet....waiting for tax return money to make quite a few book purchases along with some of the more expensive things on my lists.
I'm also concerned with this having read the stories written by the guy from Bosnia, Selco, I believe was his name. He says in his blogs that having medicines was like having gold.
 

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When I first read on here about fish antibiotics I thought people were talking about some sort of powder like you'd sprinkle on top of the water! :scratch As I've looked into it I've found that Amoxicillin, as an example is not only the same chemical make-up of the human meds but the EXACT same pill!! They are sold at a fraction of the cost even at Walmart! Pricing it out I found that it's approx $2.50 per pill at the pharmacy as compared with .15 per pill at the fish store! :eek: I guess based on that I pretty much feel like it's safe as long as I research as much as I can about uses and dosages. I haven't gotten any books yet....waiting for tax return money to make quite a few book purchases along with some of the more expensive things on my lists.
I'm also concerned with this having read the stories written by the guy from Bosnia, Selco, I believe was his name. He says in his blogs that having medicines was like having gold.
I have read up myself, and have some metronidazole to try for a chronic problem I have that some of you females may be familiar with. I figure, like Sue, that this is a relatively low risk way to try it out.

You are doing good, reading all you can and learning before just jumping in and doing something without knowing about it. I have bought a few books on self reliance and food preservation, most everything else I pick up on the internet. If you haven't gotten it yet, get a subscription to Backwoods Home Magazine, it is worth the money in my opinion.
 

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Great thread - thanks for the info!

As for the books/reference materials, are there any specific titles that are recommended?
I like Mosby's Drug Guide or Lippincott's Drug Handbook. Also, "The Pill Book" is pretty good for non-medical folks & is less than $10 at Walmart (usually by the pharmacy). All three, I think, are updated yearly so they are all plentiful on the used market.
 

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I like Mosby's Drug Guide or Lippincott's Drug Handbook. Also, "The Pill Book" is pretty good for non-medical folks & is less than $10 at Walmart (usually by the pharmacy). All three, I think, are updated yearly so they are all plentiful on the used market.
Thanks! Exactly the info I was hoping for. I've heard of/seen The Pill Book, but not the other two (and have no idea what's good and not good). Then again, I haven't looked into this sort of thing before, either. But it's definitely something I need to add to my reference materials.
 

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I am also aware of the broad rage of antibiotics and that each infection 'type' if you will, responds differently to different meds. Since I doubt most people will have a microscope to examine swabs, or know what they're looking for if they did, I think it's at lease prudent to have a few, easily obtained and affordable antibiotics on hand. I agree that you have to learn as much as possible.
I think people will have to wrap their heads around the concept of "death from paper cut" after TSHTF.

P.S. Are you concerned with the storage life of the Doxycycline? My understanding is that any in the 'cycline" family becomes toxic after the expiration date.
I just received my fish antibiotics in the mail today. The exp. date on my doxycycline is July of 2014. Updating that particular med every 2 1/2 years is a small price to pay imho.

I feel I have done sufficient research on the other fish antibiotics I purchased that they are fine for at least 5 years past their exp. dates. I am also adequately convinced that what I have purchased is pharmaceutical grade. Here is Dr. Koelker's link to her download to determine if a fish antibiotics is pharmaceutical grade.

The only antibiotic I wish I could buy that's not available in fish antibiotics is Zithromax. That is a good med and the drs. in my area tend to prescribe it often.
 

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The wanderer
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I just received my fish antibiotics in the mail today. The exp. date on my doxycycline is July of 2014. Updating that particular med every 2 1/2 years is a small price to pay imho.
You could go one step better and order more about halfway to the expiration date on what you just got. That way if the SHTF you'll have a suppy that'll extend farther. What if you waited until a month or two before that batch expired and the SHTF while you waited for it to arrive?

Good job, though, ordering them and having them on hand now! :)
 

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If you vacuum pack those bottles of antibiotics and toss them in the freezer, that effectively stops the clock for them and they will store safely that way for many years. It has been found that the expiration dates really do not have any bearing on the effeciveness or safety of the antibiotic, it is a government mandate and a good deal for the pharmaceutical companies in that it ensures continued sales.
 
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