[mtlad]

This is a survival issue that I have not seen discussed on this forum and should be of grave concern. I have been intensively researching this issue looking for ways to deal with this. Anaphylactic Shock can occur at anytime with any person, with almost any myriad of causes, this is of grave concern to me and others, I know many people that carry and epipen. I used to be a hunting guide and the hunters were instructed to carry and epipen for this if they knew that they were susceptible... I am in the mountains, many times 16 miles (usually uphill) from the nearest ANYTHING.

I would like to know if you can work a person in shock out of this if you open (forcefully) the airways and provide CPR in the case of heart failure?

Also:
I do have Benadryl and Dramamine in my first aid kit (not always there) will this help in true anaphylactic shock? With additional care?
I am going to raise these concerns with my doctor and see if he will prescribe an epipen for such cases - but I don't always have these things with me.
Will an epinephrine inhaler help?

 

[Elinor0987]

Will an epinephrine inhaler help?

From what I've read about them it could help. I wouldn't rely solely on the inhalers because if a person's airways are completely constricted, it won't do any good. It would be good to carry an alternative with them.

 

[NaeKid]

My other-half carries an EpiPen in her purse and I carry antihistimines in pill-form due to my allergies (to just about every plant known in North America plus a few animals) ...

I haven't heard of the inhaler system, but, it makes sense as my grandson needs one for his asthma.

 

[CulexPipiens]

They might be able to work themselves out of it.

My wife has severe chocolate allergies. Eat some and her throat closes. The 2 times it happened she, obviously panicing, slammed walls and doors, punched the floor, etc. everything to get her body to pump as much adrenalin into her system as possible which helped to open the throat muscles enough so she could start breathing again. It's very difficult to watch knowing there is nothing I can do (911 had already been called).

Usually it takes about 2-3 minutes from start to the point she's able to breathe a bit again... with paramedics usually arriving in 4-5 minutes. Both times they checked her over, confirmed that it was Anaphylactic Shock and recoomended hospital visit for a check over but she declined as the experience is exhausting (she says) and she just wants to go rest afterwards.

We now have an Epipen for her once she finally saw her doctor about it. The incidents were 10 years apart. The second time was after a series of allergy tests all confirmed that she does not have a chocolate allergy. We're not believing those results.

 

[CulexPipiens]

It brings up another issue. If SHTF happens and society collapses, you won't be able to replace the Epipen when it goes bad... and they do have a fairly short life... plus I believe they shouldn't be exposed to temperature extremes and such either.

 

[TNmedicman]

I can tell you from field expierence that no amount of force will open an airway that has closed off caused by anaphylactic shock.Without Epi the only option is a tracheostomy and manual ventilation until medications can be administered. My suggestion is if you have an allergy, lay your hands on as many of the EpiPens as you can. Doctors will usually let you have scripts for as many of these as you want as they want them in convienent locations so they are readilly accessable.

If its not truly anaphylasis then Benadryl will offset the body's respones to the allergen. I have seen many home remedies and none of the work for any amount of time. When the TSHTF stay away from what you are allergic to thats all I can say. Good luck.

 

[tired-medic]

I can tell you from field experience that no amount of force will open an airway that has closed off caused by anaphylactic shock.Without Epi the only option is a tracheotomy and manual ventilation until medications can be administered.

If its not truly anaphylaxis then Benadryl will offset the body's respones to the allergen. I have seen many home remedies and none of the work for any amount of time. When the TSHTF stay away from what you are allergic to thats all I can say. Good luck.

I concur.You would need epi, benadryl, solumedrol, decadron and IV fluids, just as a start. A tracheotomy if you are slow, an endotracheal tube and BVM if you begin treatment quickly. Anaphylaxis IS NOT a treat and stay at home. Comparing Anaphylaxis and an allergic reaction is like comparing a hangnail to an amputation. Yes it is that serious.
I base this on my experience. Hope YMMV in a good way.

 

[mtlad]

tracheotomy

Wow, I was wondering if a tracheotomy would get someone out of the mountains alive. I have no problem doing this especially if they would be dead without it... So do you suppose one should wait until the person looses consciences before performing this?

 

[tired-medic]

There are many things going on during anaphylaxis.pulmonary edema(lungs filling with fluid), cell walls leak fluid pretty much all over ,vessels dilate. All these can cause dangerously low blood pressure.
Now the good part. Anyphylaxis is kinda rare. I have had one occasion that the reaction continued despite a lot of epi,benadryl,and steroids. That patient was intubated and flown to a level 1 Trauma center, today he would have gotten a scene flight.
Guys the only thing I can really say is I would recommend that you learn all you can about first aid and wilderness emergency care. There are many things we take for granted today that have been and will be deadly without the advanced health care we have today.
Sorry to be so long and full of doom and gloom. I do not intend my statements to cause anyone to consider treating these conditions on their own without proper education and training, just to illustrate how dangerous this can be.

 

[semperscott]

Good info! I continue to learn and expand my knowledge each and every time I visit the Forum. Thank you to all who take the time and effort to post info.

 

[mtlad]

There are many things going on during anaphylaxis.pulmonary edema(lungs filling with fluid), cell walls leak fluid pretty much all over ,vessels dilate. All these can cause dangerously low blood pressure.
Now the good part. Anyphylaxis is kinda rare. I have had one occasion that the reaction continued despite a lot of epi,benadryl,and steroids. That patient was intubated and flown to a level 1 Trauma center, today he would have gotten a scene flight.
Guys the only thing I can really say is I would recommend that you learn all you can about first aid and wilderness emergency care. There are many things we take for granted today that have been and will be deadly without the advanced health care we have today.
Sorry to be so long and full of doom and gloom. I do not intend my statements to cause anyone to consider treating these conditions on their own without proper education and training, just to illustrate how dangerous this can be.

Thank you, doom and gloom is what I need, I can handle it... I am doing all I can do for education and training, any recomendations?

 

[tired-medic]

I recommend an EMT Basic class as a starting point. It is the building block to start with. There are wilderness classes and such after that. The Paramedic class is the gold standard if you will but requires a medical control agreement or physician sponsorship. You would really need to at least find a place to volunteer to maintain certification for any EMT level.Talk to some of the local
Emits and firemen, they usually will point you in the right direction. If these don't appeal to you get a first aid course.

 

[TNmedicman]

I recommend an EMT Basic class as a starting point. It is the building block to start with. There are wilderness classes and such after that. The Paramedic class is the gold standard if you will but requires a medical control agreement or physician sponsorship. You would really need to at least find a place to volunteer to maintain certification for any EMT level.Talk to some of the local
Emits and firemen, they usually will point you in the right direction. If these don't appeal to you get a first aid course.

I will agree with that 100%. If you are not ready to dive into the EMT idea get with your local fire or EMS station and become a first responder. Its just a step below EMT basic and gives some very useful knowledge. You can also get some information on basic first aid from your local red cross chapter though I would strongly recommend going further in depth than just first aid.
As always good luck and God bless

 

[mtlad]

Emergency trachiotomy

How to Perform an Emergency Tracheotomy

I have taken quite a bit of training already, (I used to be a hunting guide AND spent the majority of my time in the wilderness) in addition, I research as much as I can, to be prepared as possible... where I live "wtshtf" can happen every day and you must be prepared for many things.

The tracheotomy is basic knowledge that every 10 year old should know, It is as basic as knowing how to stop bleeding using pressure points. An acquaintance of mine died simply because neither he, nor anyone else knew how to stop the bleeding of his femoral artery.

 

[baarf]

No, an inhaler will not work. Anaphylactic shock is systemic. You need to administer a lot of epi fast, and of a particular dosage too. If this is a serious concern for you, then you need to have your doctor give you a script for an epipen, and show you how to use it. There is no substitute.

Benadryl is for after the initial episode wears off, and you will need further medical care.

If they are to the point you are doing compressions/ventilating you are too late.

CPR (in spite of what you see on TV) cannot bring you back from the dead.

This is a survival issue that I have not seen discussed on this forum and should be of grave concern. I have been intensively researching this issue looking for ways to deal with this. Anaphylactic Shock can occur at anytime with any person, with almost any myriad of causes, this is of grave concern to me and others, I know many people that carry and epipen. I used to be a hunting guide and the hunters were instructed to carry and epipen for this if they knew that they were susceptible... I am in the mountains, many times 16 miles (usually uphill) from the nearest ANYTHING.

I would like to know if you can work a person in shock out of this if you open (forcefully) the airways and provide CPR in the case of heart failure?

Also:
I do have Benadryl and Dramamine in my first aid kit (not always there) will this help in true anaphylactic shock? With additional care?
I am going to raise these concerns with my doctor and see if he will prescribe an epipen for such cases - but I don't always have these things with me.
Will an epinephrine inhaler help?

 

[baarf]

Well, again, in spite of what you see on TV, it is not as easy as it looks. There are many arteries in your neck that you can nick and then you also have your patient bleeding out. Sorry Macgyver, if you do anything, look into cricothyroid stick, and if you don't have the right training, leave this alone too.

You can take a paramedic course, and volunteer to work in many small ambulance companies, and you will probabaly get more experience than you ever want.
There is no replacement for displacement, or proper training

Wow, I was wondering if a tracheotomy would get someone out of the mountains alive. I have no problem doing this especially if they would be dead without it... So do you suppose one should wait until the person looses consciences before performing this?

 

[mtlad]

worst case

Do you propose that I do nothing? you know, I have a lot of experience killing all kinds of animals by cutting their jugular vein - I know exactly where it is... trust me, if you miss the jugular vein -they live (except for rabbits - sometimes they just scare to death). SO### do you cut or not???

 

[Momturtle]

This is an issue I have been researching lately since I had an anaphylactic shock reaction several weeks ago to an insect sting. Did not have an epipen - never had that kind of reaction before. Did have an epinephrine inhaler which I used immediately and multiple times, took benedryl (5) before my throat began swelling. Fortunately EMTs arrived with injectible epinephrine and saved the day. Talked about it later with several herbalist friends - hey, what herbs for anaphylactic shock guys? Closest they came was Foxglove extract - adrenalin precursors, very toxic and easily overdosed but just might do the trick and if you had a choice between that and dead . . . I am going to try growing some and making extract to have on hand. However, real world, real now I'm carrying an epipen everywhere and scanning around for stinging insects like a total freak. But I will not stay inside, I will garden and will continue to spend a great deal of time camping and doing various woods work. Not going to quit but I sure am more careful. We put up yellow jacket/eurasian fruit hornet traps - remove part of the problem anyway. I am looking into desensitizing shots - sounds like a prep thing to me.

 

[rhrobert]

I am allergic to bee stings. I took desensitizing shots for 8 years...yes, 8 years, starting weekly, then going monthly, until finally the doctor said it wasn't going to help, and if I ever got stung, I better be within 15 minutes of a hospital. this was 35 years ago.

Used to carry the little red kit with the shot and pills, then carried the epi-pen for the last few years. Went to renew my pens, and even with my insurance, they are now over $200...I said forget it, when it's my time, it's my time I guess.

*EDIT*: After posting I took a look on the web for a way to get reduced cost epi pens and came across this:
http://www.freemedicine.com/medlist/EpiPen 2-Pak.shtml

Does anyone know anything about them? 80% off a 2 pack, or free after a $10 application fee. Seems too good to be true

 

[SARSpecialist]

Did you mean tracheostomy or cricothyrodomy... there is a differance and Tracheostomy is very dangerous in the hands of a novice, chricothyrodomy is not mush better but the best of two evils.. .

How to Perform an Emergency Tracheotomy

I have taken quite a bit of training already, (I used to be a hunting guide AND spent the majority of my time in the wilderness) in addition, I research as much as I can, to be prepared as possible... where I live "wtshtf" can happen every day and you must be prepared for many things.

The tracheotomy is basic knowledge that every 10 year old should know, It is as basic as knowing how to stop bleeding using pressure points. An acquaintance of mine died simply because neither he, nor anyone else knew how to stop the bleeding of his femoral artery.