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Dams After SHTF?


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Old 02-28-2013, 04:11 AM   #1
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Default Dams After SHTF?

So.. what exactly would happen to dams that form man-made lakes if the power went out via EMP or what have you? Would water just simply build up and flow over the top? Or would the flood gates open? (Forgive my ignorance as I have no idea how dams work).

I mean.. I assume there's a run-off thing on the side of most dams, and that nothing would really happen at all... but I'm curious since there are quite a few dams around here, and my BOL (even though I really plan on bugging IN unless it gets REALLY bad) is below 2 dams, and above a third.



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Old 02-28-2013, 05:29 AM   #2
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That's an interesting question and worthy of discussion. Thanks for posing it.

I'll be watching this thread.



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Old 02-28-2013, 08:22 AM   #3
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I can't speak for all areas and types to be sure, but most that I know of have spillways that can handle the appropriate amounts of water to avoid catastrophic failure. I am sure if they weren't being operated some would fail as to how many and over what time period
Important to think about, especially if they might affect your area.

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Old 02-28-2013, 01:12 PM   #4
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It all depends if the gates automatically close or open when electricity fails.

Overflow or flood gates that aren't able to open might create a problem of excessive stress on the dams.

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Old 02-28-2013, 01:33 PM   #5
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I agree with cowboyhermit. Most/all have spillways that have nothing to do with any moving parts(like gates). If you have one upstream from your house the logical thing would be to go look at it and see where the water would go if it built way up.

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Old 03-03-2013, 02:17 PM   #6
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Much of the country is drier than normal. I wonder how many parts of the country would be wet enough for dams to be affected.

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Old 03-03-2013, 02:28 PM   #7
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This bears some investigation. My house is above the dam that would affect us. But with as many as we have around here it would royally screw things up. Most of the dams around here have manual flood gates. We had 7+ inches of rain above normal this January and after the main channel was lowered, all the reseviors were spilled to lower them to allow for more containment during the spring rains. I tend to think if they were not functional they lake would rise till it topped the dam. I would think long term the this would erode the concrete rather quickly, probably erode the anchor points on either side as well.

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Old 03-03-2013, 05:41 PM   #8
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Without continuous maintenance, they will eventually fail. The upkeep is critical. There is one on the Cumberland River in KY that is leaking around the edges NOW and they are working on a fix for it but without that work that dam will fail.


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Old 03-03-2013, 09:03 PM   #9
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This is an interesting question. I'm writing this from the control room of Ross Powerhouse were I began my career on Monday April 29, 1974. I've been in Hydro Operation for a while. The generating plants that were here in the 1960's and some in the early 70's would be recoverable after an EMP. Today's plants would be toast. For decades now, I've watched bad Engineering decisons wreck the reliability of generating plants. I've seen processor driven automated systems replace manual controls, the manual controls removed, then the only Engineer that understood the new system at all leave the utility to go to another state.

Generally, gates do not open automatically. And, given that emergency generators at the dams have electronic controls these days, getting power to open them would be a challenge after an EMP. It's theoretically possible to crank open the two 72" butterfly spill valves in the center of Ross Dam and the three 78" butterfly valves in the center of Diablo Dam, using hand wheels. But it would take a good crew a full day of constant cranking for some of them. For the spillgates you need power. For 16 of the 19 gates at Diablo you need to push a 5,300 lb. "mule" onto the dam, hook it up to power and use its hydraulic grapples to lift the gates. THe two 47 by 500 ft. gates at Gorge need power for a 15hp three phase motor, and even its lower outlets are gates that need power.

Most concrete masonry dams are well constructed and can withstand a certain amount of overtopping, but it won't do them any good or make recovery any easier.

As to the generating plants, if we have battery power or other stored energy (sometimes a pressure accumulator) to close the penstock valves, or opportunity to put gate locks in place, we can keep the generators from spinning up and damaging themselves as all power and pressure on the gate servos is lost. If the plant has a functioning water powered sump eductor and we turn it on, we should be able to keep the powerhouse from flooding as long as there is water in the power tunnel.

The dams themselves are built to last. Concrete is weird stuff, it never really stops curing, only slows down. At 50-80 years, good concrete is very good, indeed. At 150 years, it may actually be getting a bit brittle.

I don't see these plants as recoverable from EMP in less than... well years, if major equipment is damaged and more has to be ordered, built and transported. Working around delicate electronics to get something running could be done in weeks or months, but that requires some materials, too. And it requires a full time operating staff that no longer exists. The solid state exciters common on modern generators would not fare well in an EMP event. No excitation means that big alternator does not make much power.

With the generators down for the count, our biggest immediate challenge would be configuring the dams to not be overtopped and perhaps to function as some degree of flood control. Example: the water behind Ross is 82 feet below full right now, because the storage reservoir cycles seasonally. If we could get enough lower outlets opened, leaving space for the lakes to fill before getting close to the tops of the dams, we could still use the dams to even out some of the peaks during flood season. But as far as power, don't hold your breath.

Federal law requires us to have an "Emergency Action Plan" for the event of a dam breaking or threatening to break. It does not require us to have a plan that would work in an earthquake. We are not required to plan for an EMP event. If we have a solar event like the one in 1859, I'd say our society is back to about the year 1900.

I am my utility's most senior Hydroelectric Operator. I collect kerosene lamps. Think about it.

In most of our critical infrastructure, not just the electrical industry, we see the skilled blue collar people who keep it working gettting older and older and finally retiring. Very few youngsters are coming up through the ranks. Recently, it gave me pleasure to see two bright young Apprentices "top out" and become Journeyman Electrician Constructors. But this was in a time and place where it should have been a dozen, not two. Physical assets are not being adequately maintained. "Managment" is more and more the political type who will postpone maintenance and upgrades to cut costs. The term "crumbling infrastructure" is accurate. But perhaps equally important is the loss of institutional knowledge and experience as the most experienced people are leaving, or in some cases being driven out, without adequately trained and experienced replacements coming aboard.

We live in a nation of MBA's who cannot wire a house, fall a tree, or even change a tire or drive a nail. Brace yourselves.


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Old 03-03-2013, 09:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HamiltonFelix
This is an interesting question. I'm writing this from the control room of Ross Powerhouse were I began my career on Monday April 29, 1974. I've been in Hydro Operation for a while. The generating plants that were here in the 1960's and some in the early 70's would be recoverable after an EMP. Today's plants would be toast. For decades now, I've watched bad Engineering decisons wreck the reliability of generating plants. I've seen processor driven automated systems replace manual controls, the manual controls removed, then the only Engineer that understood the new system at all leave the utility to go to another state.

Generally, gates do not open automatically. And, given that emergency generators at the dams have electronic controls these days, getting power to open them would be a challenge after an EMP. It's theoretically possible to crank open the two 72" butterfly spill valves in the center of Ross Dam and the three 78" butterfly valves in the center of Diablo Dam, using hand wheels. But it would take a good crew a full day of constant cranking for some of them. For the spillgates you need power. For 16 of the 19 gates at Diablo you need to push a 5,300 lb. "mule" onto the dam, hook it up to power and use its hydraulic grapples to lift the gates. THe two 47 by 500 ft. gates at Gorge need power for a 15hp three phase motor, and even its lower outlets are gates that need power.

Most concrete masonry dams are well constructed and can withstand a certain amount of overtopping, but it won't do them any good or make recovery any easier.

As to the generating plants, if we have battery power or other stored energy (sometimes a pressure accumulator) to close the penstock valves, or opportunity to put gate locks in place, we can keep the generators from spinning up and damaging themselves as all power and pressure on the gate servos is lost. If the plant has a functioning water powered sump eductor and we turn it on, we should be able to keep the powerhouse from flooding as long as there is water in the power tunnel.

The dams themselves are built to last. Concrete is weird stuff, it never really stops curing, only slows down. At 50-80 years, good concrete is very good, indeed. At 150 years, it may actually be getting a bit brittle.

I don't see these plants as recoverable from EMP in less than... well years, if major equipment is damaged and more has to be ordered, built and transported. Working around delicate electronics to get something running could be done in weeks or months, but that requires some materials, too. And it requires a full time operating staff that no longer exists. The solid state exciters common on modern generators would not fare well in an EMP event. No excitation means that big alternator does not make much power.

With the generators down for the count, our biggest immediate challenge would be configuring the dams to not be overtopped and perhaps to function as some degree of flood control. Example: the water behind Ross is 82 feet below full right now, because the storage reservoir cycles seasonally. If we could get enough lower outlets opened, leaving space for the lakes to fill before getting close to the tops of the dams, we could still use the dams to even out some of the peaks during flood season. But as far as power, don't hold your breath.

Federal law requires us to have an "Emergency Action Plan" for the event of a dam breaking or threatening to break. It does not require us to have a plan that would work in an earthquake. We are not required to plan for an EMP event. If we have a solar event like the one in 1859, I'd say our society is back to about the year 1900.

I am my utility's most senior Hydroelectric Operator. I collect kerosene lamps. Think about it.

In most of our critical infrastructure, not just the electrical industry, we see the skilled blue collar people who keep it working gettting older and older and finally retiring. Very few youngsters are coming up through the ranks. Recently, it gave me pleasure to see two bright young Apprentices "top out" and become Journeyman Electrician Constructors. But this was in a time and place where it should have been a dozen, not two. Physical assets are not being adequately maintained. "Managment" is more and more the political type who will postpone maintenance and upgrades to cut costs. The term "crumbling infrastructure" is accurate. But perhaps equally important is the loss of institutional knowledge and experience as the most experienced people are leaving, or in some cases being driven out, without adequately trained and experienced replacements coming aboard.

We live in a nation of MBA's who cannot wire a house, fall a tree, or even change a tire or drive a nail. Brace yourselves.
I know exactly what you mean. Its hard to get electrician apprentices to stay the course. Ive been training these kids in residential and commercial for a few years now. Everytime they get to a certain level of training and responsibility, the boss doubles the load on them but wont pay them any extra. Hes making a stinkin killing and running off potentially great future tradesmen all in the name of short term profits. I tried to explain how this was to his detriment, but the discussion quickly devolved to him telling me to hit the gate if i didnt like it. Smh...


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